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BF-109 and other such planes - rocketeer - 09-02-2011 01:27 AM
Rocketeer (Larry) posted:
![[Image: philco_89-2.jpg]](http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab191/rocketeer_2010/philco_89-2.jpg)
and TA Forbes responded:
TA Forbes Wrote:Which variant of the Bf 109 is the pic in the background of? Looks like an F, G, or K....BF-109G-14AS
Larry
Re: Flea market find - TA Forbes - 09-02-2011 04:37 AM
Oh yes, one of the last of the Bf 109G variants before they transitioned production to the Bf 109K variants.
The 109G was, in the hands of a good pilot, a good airplane, especially at high altitude. Unfortunately the Germans attached a lot of extra armament to it with the resultant loss in performance. Herbert Rollwage got many of his 44 four-engine kills with the "gunboat" variant of the 109G. (some sources state that he had fewer four engine kills)
In the beginning of Bud Anderson's book To Fly and Fight there is a great account of a dogfight that he got into with a hot pilot flying a Bf 109. Until Anderson risked using his combat flaps (he flew a P51B in this episode), the 109 out turned him twice!!!!
Re: Flea market find - rocketeer - 09-02-2011 05:20 AM
Yes, they were a great plane *in the air*. The trick was avoiding ground loops with that narrow track of the landing gear. There was an incident just a couple of years ago of the landing gear collapsing on a BF-109 if I remember correctly (I don't do the airshows anymore, getting too long in the tooth). The cockpit wasn't designed for room or comfort either. Real tight quarters in there compared to most of the American fighters. With a little effort you can squeeze two people into a P-38 or P-51 compared to just about enough room for one smaller person in a BF-109 (if they didn't have a big breakfast).
Larry
Re: Flea market find - Michael Dennis - 09-02-2011 12:08 PM
Greetings gents, hope you don't mind if I add a comment. The 109, in the hands of a skilled pilot, could give the P-51 a real hard time. The variants with the undewing 20mm cannon were meant for use against the U.S. bomber formations and the added armament badly affected handling characteristics.
The FW 190's wide track undercarriage was much sturdier than the 109's narrow gear, plus the FW 190 could carry bigger guns and more of them and was more effective at shooting down the B-17's and B-24's. It also had armor plating. But above 18,ooo feet it's performance fell off sharply and was not as effective a dogfighter as the '109.
Mike
Re: Flea market find - TA Forbes - 09-02-2011 06:01 PM
Yes, the 109 and the Spitfire both suffered from the narrow landing gear issues. After the war very good allied pilots had accidents while attempting to take off or land in a 109. A particularly vicious model of the 109 was the Avia S 199, which mated the 109G-14 airframe to a junkers jumo 211F engine. It was used by the IAF during the wars of the late 1940s, and was described by one pilot as being "unfriendly, poker faced, ungracious, and hateful."
The Focke Wulf 190D9 and TA 152 variants were developed to improve the altitude performance of the 190. In that, especially with the TA 152, they were successful.
I am convinced that pilot skill and his ability to command his systems on his aircraft is the key ingredient to aerial kills. Oh yes, and a fair degree of luck.
An example would be the P38. In north africa at lower altitudes the Lightning routinely bested the best that the Germans and Italians had. In fact, at low altitude, the Lightning could out turn any axis aircraft. Additionally, with it's great horsepower to weight ratio and contra-rotating props, it could fight at near stall speed and still fire its guns without fear of going into a spin.
HOWEVER, in the high altitude air combat of the european theater, the Lightning was considered an easy kill as documented by many German aces.
Re: Flea market find - Michael Dennis - 09-02-2011 06:47 PM
I have an old calender with paintings of WW II aircraft. One is an airborne Avia S 199. Below it and to one side is apparently an Egyptian flown Spitfire V with a tropical filter beneath the spinner. Didn't these Israeli Messerschmitts fly escort for surplus B-17's, protecting them against Spitfires in 1948? A very interesting role reversal.
I think the FW 190 D series and the TA 152 employed Junkers Jumo 213 engines. These inline V engines dramatically improved the FW's high altitude performance. German pilots were impressed by the 190D's turning radius even tho they had a longer nose than the older FW 190 A series fighters that employed the BMW 801 D-2 14 cylinder radial engine.
I didn't know about the info you imparted about the P-38, except for the fact that at high altitude they were considered more of a target than an opponent to the best German fighters in the ETO. Verrrrry interesting!
Mike
Re: Flea market find - TA Forbes - 09-03-2011 04:33 AM
Yes, the in line jumo 213 with the anular radiator gave the D9/TA 152 a radial-like appearance. They had a fusalage plug inserted just fore of the tail assembly to compensate for the longer nose, which ultimately made them much longer than the FW 190A/F/G variants.
Yes, in the beginning the IAF had Avias and the Egyptians had Spits. The first Israeli Spits were made from a combination of downed Egyptian Spits and English Spits left at their bases in Palestine when they pulled out. In fact, the first of these cobbled together Israeli Spits was a combination of Mk V, Mk IX, and F 21 Spitfire parts, and flew beautifully. In my research I have noticed that the Israeli Spit Mk IXs that were obtained in 1948 from Czechkoslovakia did not employ the tropical air filter.
From what I have read the IAF never had more than a few, as in three or so, B17s. They also had a small number of Mosquitos, but the age of the plane coupled with the wooden construction of it did not hold up well in the middle eastern climate.
Re: Flea market find - Michael Dennis - 09-03-2011 05:03 AM
I didn't know the Israelis had Spits also, nor that some were assembled from downed Egyptian fighters plus English ones. Very interesting. And I didn't know they had some Mosquitos either. From what you say it appears the Israelis had better success with the Spit than the Avia Messerschmitts
IIRC when the FW 190D9 came out pilots were informed by designer Kurt Tank that it was merely a sort of stop-gap measure until the TA 152's could be placed into production. They therefore didn't expect much of the D9 and were very pleasantly surprised by it's handling characteristics and beautifully balanced controls. It also had much improved top end at high altitude. And yes, the annular radiator gave the D9, D12 and TA 152 the superficial appearance of a radial engine.
I have the FW 190 A/F/G series in more modelling scales than any other aircraft, from 1/144 to 1/24 scale. I always thought highly of the Wurger or "Butcher Bird" aircraft. That and the P-51 have been my favorite fighters. Oh heck, I love 'em all!
Mike
Re: Flea market find - TA Forbes - 09-04-2011 04:04 AM
The 190/152 variants are some of my favorites too. I thought the 190 was a better "shooting platform" than the 109, I think that was evident by later additional 20mm and 30 mm guns that were mounted under or inside the outboard wing stations.
Rudel flew a FW 190 near the end of the war, after he was shot down in his JU 87G and lost the lower half of one leg. He flew an A/F/G (can't remember which) that had Mk 103 30mm guns under each wing with special wolfram rounds. The round was a primative kinetic energy round similar in principle to the sabot rounds used in tanks today. I believe Rudel had 12 air victories in addition to his 519 tanks.
Re: Flea market find - Michael Dennis - 09-04-2011 04:16 AM
The FW 190s were a more effective bomber killer than the 109, probably the most effective of the war using conventional machine guns and cannon.
For a while the twin engine Messerschmitt 110 and 410 rocket carrying fighters were very effective against the bomber formations, once the P-47's reached the limit of their range and had to turn back. When the longer range P-51 arrived the twin engine Messerschmitt fighters were easier targets to shoot down and thus their effectiveness was nullified. It's amazing the amount of armament some of the 190's carried, some had six 20 mm cannon, some had two to four 20 mm and two underwing 30 mm, plus the 13 mm machine guns firing over the cowling.
I didn't know that Rudel flew a 190, but the underwing 30 mm cannon sounds like a ground attack version of the FW. There were two different 30 mm cannon, the chief discernable difference being barrel length, the MK 103 and the MK 108. IIRC the shorter barrel weapons had a lower muzzle velocity but a higher rate of fire.
Mike
Re: BF-109 and other such planes - TA Forbes - 09-05-2011 02:59 AM
Looks like we got moved!
Some of the later A8 190s had the Mk 108s mounted internally in the outboard wing stations. The Rammjager units had these variants, and I think Walter Dahl flew one when he commanded JG 300. Dahl claimed 36 four engine kills, one by ramming!
The heavier machine guns above the cowl of the aircraft appeared with the A8 variant. Before that it was 7.92mm. The TA 152 and some variants of the D9 had 2-20mm in the wing roots and a 30 mm firing through the prop spinner. Very effective with minimal effect on wing loading.
The 109K had 2 15mm guns over the cowl and a 30mm firing through the prop spinner. Interesting when you remember that the 109F had the 15mm gun firing through the prop spinner and 2-7.92mgs over the cowl. But with mw50 boost the 109K was pushing 2000hp, making it a fast and agile opponent!!
I too enjoy this thread, it is uncommon to run into another WWII aviation nut. I really ought to get back into modeling. But now that it's summer I am trying to do all the radio cabinets (that need it, I prefer original if possible) while it's nice out. Having recently moved I am doing all of this in my garage. Currently I am finishing a Philco 97, a Silvertone 1982, and a Silvertone 1856. Once these are done I intend to tackle my Airline 62-72 and my Contenental 16R console.
Re: BF-109 and other such planes - Michael Dennis - 09-05-2011 03:40 AM
Hello TA,
Yes, I guess I got kinda carried away with the plane talk. I wasn't aware the MK 108, (the shorter barrel 30 mm), was mounted in the outboard wing stations. 36 bomber kills, that's quite an accomplishment. A pilot was far likelier to survive a ramming attack in a 190 than a 109 for sure. I'm not sure but I think that huge 1/24 scale MPC FW190 is an A6 variant, but I could be mistaken.
I remember the old Monogram 1/48 scale FW 190 A kit, several versions could be built with the extra parts, it was basiclly an A5 airframe with guns, drop tanks and bombs as part of the extra ordnance inventory, but as good as the kit was in the 1960's, probably not entirely accurate in some respects, for example, the cowl guns were the 7.9 mm guns and you were pretty much stuck with that. Ah, yes, I recall the Ta 152 and D9 variants that has the (2) 20 mm in the wings and the 30 mm firing through the prop spinner, and I think that was pretty much considered the most efficient armament for the fighter versions, with minimal deleterious effect on manauverability and the D's that flew top cover for the ME 262 jets over their airfields.
As I recall the 109K had a top speed of 452 m.p.h. The P-51 D was actually a bit slower than the earlier P-51B, 437 vs. 440 m.p.h., and the "B" models with the Malcom hood canopy at 449 m.p.h. Tit for tat in performance one-upmanship, the FW 190 D9 was even faster than the 109K.
Thanks, T A, I've enjoyed this thread immensely myself!
I understand about finishing up the radios, and there's just not enough hours in the day to get everything done sometimes. It's quite nice to be able to share two common interests with another soldier!Chuck, you've stated that you've built some 1/48 scale WW II allied and axis warbird model kits as well. If you, or anyone else, would care to join in on our discussion we'd consider it an honor to hear from you about your interests and experiences.
Mike
Re: BF-109 and other such planes - TA Forbes - 09-06-2011 06:55 AM
I used the monogram kit to make my replica of Heinz Bar's 190A6. Yes, a neat kit with several variant options.
If you want to, look up the Messershmitt P1101 or the Focke Wulf TA 183. Both these aircraft contributed heavily to the design of both the F86 and the Mig 15.
Re: BF-109 and other such planes - Michael Dennis - 09-06-2011 10:40 PM
I still have one or two of the old Monogram FW kits, unbuilt, heck, unopened even. At the time I thought it was the coolest model kit ever. It's still a pretty good kit, even tho it has no wheel well detail.
Very interesting, I looked up the Messerschmitt P 1101, (projected top speed of 612 m.p.h.), and the Focke Wulf TA 183 Huckebein, (Hunchback), with a projected top speed of 593 m.p.h. Both would have been faster than the ME 262's 540 m.p.h. performance, altho neither prototype ever flew because of the ending of the war. The Messerschmitt does closely resemble the North American F 86.
I recall reading that Focke Wulf chief designer Kurt Tank moved to Argentina after the war and had some success. It's clear that both types mentioned seem to have had some influence on the design of the F 86 nd the Mig 15, the two main opponents of the Korean War. In fact, as I understood it the performance capability of the Mig 15 came as a complete surprise to the West, in fact it came as a very rude shock, and I can't help but wonder in the Soviets had somehow gotten some information or specs on the German jet fighters. The Russians were famous for copying some of our technology, such as the B-29 Superfortress and our BC-348 receiver. Oh, and their Tokarev semiauto pistol is basiclly our Colt .45.
Mike
Re: BF-109 and other such planes - TA Forbes - 09-07-2011 04:17 PM
Yes, but the Tokarev is 7.65, not a caliber I would select to carry. The SK/AK action is very similar to that of several US weapons, but simplified and rugged. I still prefer the 7.62X39 variants over nearly all other weapons. In a pistol I usually prefer a 9mm only because I like having lots of bullets in my magazine, and 9mm is easy to obtain everywhere. A 9mm is a fair compromise for knock down power, especially is one uses rounds like a hydro shock or black talon. We has special modified M1911A1s when I was in spec ops, called "MeuSocs," a very good weapon but only a 7 round mag. On "green" ops I usually carried a Car 15 "shorty" with an M203 attachment. But I have also carried M14s, Uzis, MP5s, and the russian AK variants. We tried the MAC 10/11s, but they were impractical for what we did. Towards the end of my mil career we got M249 SAWs, they were an excellent little MG, but did not feed well from 30rd mags. You had to use the 200rd box mag.
Hmmm. Note how I went from "present" to "past" in the last paragraph.....
ANYWAY, the USSR also copied the M2 MG, the German G43, the Redeye, LAAW, Sidewinder, Sparrow, and combined the F14/15/18 to produce their MiG 29.