The PHILCO Phorum

Just wanted to post an update on this.  I ordered some 4F pumice stone and rottenstone along with some felt rubbing pads. I gently wet sanded the entire cabinet with 1000 grit paper and have moved on to 1500. From there I'll go to 2000 and then try rubbing it out with the 4F pumice stone. Depending upon how it looks I may use the rottenstone.

Hard to believe I started working on this cabinet 13 months ago! But like I've mentioned previously, this is just a hobby for me and I work on it when I have the time. I'll post some more pictures after I've gone over it with the 4F pumice stone.

- Geoff

I started going over the cabinet again 4F pumice and water with a few drops of dish washing detergent.  I was using two small pieces of felt wrapped around a small wooden block.  I wasn’t too happy with the results.  It left the finish a little too cloudy for my taste.  So I figured I may as well do it the right way by using mineral oil instead of water again using new felt and a small flat piece of wood.  Here is a picture after wiping down part of the cabinet with mineral oil and 4F.  I then wiped off the residue and cleaned the area with lemon oil.  Then wiped off the lemon oil as much as I could with soft cotton.  On the left is the result of using pumice and mineral oil with the results of water and mineral oil on the right.



I then did the top and the entire left side.  Again, cleaning off the residue with lemon oil and soft cotton.  I think it looks pretty good but my only complaint is that when you look at the cabinet in the right light you can see the fine scratches from the 4F pumice.  I guess this is to be expected.



Here is when the light is just at the right angle.  The picture makes it look worse than it really is.



Here is a picture of the cabinet with the left side and top done.



I bought some Rottenstone but I think this is glossy enough for me.  It's hard to get a good picture inside with the lighting.  It's not quite as shiny as the menzerna polishing compound from above.  I’m hoping that adding a coat or two of paste wax in a circular motion will help eliminate some of these fine scratches.  It’s almost like a shiny brushed aluminum, if that makes sense.  I've seen finishes that were rubbed out to a satin and semi-gloss and I didn't see the fine scratches that I’m getting.  I feel like I’m missing something here.

- Geoff

I did a test tonight on the top of the cabinet. On the right I went over it 3 times with Novus 2 plastic polish. On the left, I went over it twice with Johnson’s paste wax. The Novus did a pretty good job with removing the fine scratches while the paste wax seemed to have little to no effect. You can still see some scratches on the Novus side but I’m sure these will polish out with additional applications.

Picture with no flash


Picture with flash


Picture with flash


I think at this point the best way to get a semi-gloss or satin finish without leaving scratches is to use gloss for initial foundation coats followed by 4-6 coats of semi-gloss or satin. Then proceed with the rubbing out process I was following; 500, 1000, 1500 grit wet sanding followed by 4F Pumice then Rottenstone (both with mineral oil). Then followed by Novus 2 as needed. A lot of work but what the heck.

I’ve heard others state that you can knock down the shine of a gloss finish by going over it with #0000 steel wool but I don’t see how you do that without ending up with visible scratches.

I’m going to finish up the rest of the cabinet with 4F pumice followed by Rottenstone and see how it looks. I have a feeling I’m going to end up with the same finish I had with the menzerna product mentioned above. I’ll then debate going over it with satin or semi-gloss followed by another rubbing out process.

Stay tuned.

- Geoff

Wow Geoff. I have followed your progress on this radio off and on . You have done a very nice job on the cabinet and letting everyone know what you used and comparision pictures has helped me learn alot. I have ran into the scratches showing up after using 0000 steel wool and just figured I wasn't doig it right.

Wow Geoff, you have really done a nice job on this cabinet. I usually don't go for gloss finishes but when done nicely like yours it looks great

(12-12-2014, 02:35 AM)thirtiesradio Wrote: [ -> ]Wow Geoff, you have really done a nice job on this cabinet. I usually don't go for gloss finishes but when done nicely like yours it looks great

I'm not huge on gloss finishes either but I always read that you should spray gloss because it doesn't have the dulling fines that are added to semi-gloss and satin lacquers. Without them the finish is more more durable. Then, depending upon what you use, you can rub the gloss out to whatever finish you want. I'm not totally convinced of this approach. What I have found is that yes, you can achieve a semi-gloss or satin after rubbing out gloss but you are left with very fine visible scratches. And then of course, as you continue rubbing to get rid of the scratches you are back to a gloss finish which I am trying to avoid.

The other factor that plays into how visible the scratches are is the color of what you are rubbing out. I finished rubbing out the top, sides, and columns with 4F pumice and mineral oil last night. It was getting late but for a quick test I rubbed out a small 4" x 4" section of the lighter brown on the front (rubbing with the grain). The dark top and sides showed visible scratches as shown in the photos above but in the lighter front section they were very difficult to see. On the front I used Mohawk Perfect Brown (M100-0249), a dye-based toner. On the top, sides, and columns I used a Mohawk pigment based toner (Extra Dark Walnut, #M101-0209). I think any pigment based toner would show the rub out scratches more than the dye based.

The plan next is to finish the 4F rub out on the front and then switch to Rottenstone. I'll post some pictures as time permits.

- Geoff

On a separate note, I reached out to Kenny Richmond at Richmond Designs and asked him how achieves his beautiful finishes.  Here was his reply (he said it was OK to post it here):

Hello Geoff,

Man, you are working way to hard to achieve what you are looking for,  as there are other ways with a lot less elbow work.

I can achieve the finish you are looking for, by spraying  two to three final coats.  No rubbing at all, no polish.

I have a friend in California who teaches classes on French polishing , which includes a rubbed finish like you want.  He told me that it takes weeks, sometimes months to get a truly proper hand rubbed finish.  I told him I will stick to using my spray rig.

Even spraying for the rubbed finish,  takes some prep.  I leave the sanding sealer step from 400gr to 600gr,.... then I begin with the final clear, with two coats.  Let that dry overnight , then WET sand with 1000,.... two more coats, 24 hours curing.  Then wet sand again with 1200 and spray the final coats.

Most finishers achieve the final that lies between Satin and Semigloss, by using many different methods.

What I do is,.. I buy Semigloss lacquer clear coat for everything.  If I want a gloss finish, I just don't stir the material.  After the can sits for a few hours, all the fines  have settled to the bottom of the can.  Then if I want a semigloss, those dulling fines are there, and I just stir.  Now... the key to getting the in between, or below the semigloss stage, what I do is just add Sanding sealer to my finish sealer, and this adds even more dulling fines.

Result,...a hand rubbed finish look without the rubbing.

Once again... You guys are using rattle cans and I can't guide you there, as I have never used them.  Without the rig, you lose the control of air pressure control, mixture control, and by not having these, you cannot apply mist coats in the final stages which is very, very important. Actually, almost a necessity.

My advice to you  on this one... so not to go backward... "Meguiar's" makes a "mirror glaze" product, which is the final step for those fine scratches or swirls if you are buffing.

The company that makes the polish you are using, probably has this product.

One thing to remember... when you leave 600gr paper, you just about have to be wet sanding to eliminate grit or trash that could cause unnecessary scratches.

Keep the paper wet and free of grit, every few strokes of sanding. Wipe your surface about the same.  If you are going to do any more sanding after you have polished, you need to buy some "wax and grease remover", wipe clean the whole cabinet a couple of times before you start sanding again.  Otherwise you are just grinding polish into the finish and gumming up the paper.

I hope this has helped you, Geoff, I wish I was there to give you a hand.  You can post  this if it will help the guys in any way.

Merry Christmas to you all, and to all a good finish !

To me, the final few mists make the most sense and explain a lot to me.  I had a Philco 71 cabinet professionally refinished for me.  I would say the finish falls in between a semi-gloss and satin finish.  The finish is level and it's as smooth as glass without a scratch on it.  I'm sure the person that did it for me sanded everything smooth as Kenny describes above and then adjusted the spray gun to mist on the final few coats.  Those final few mist coats dissolved the scratches and left a beautiful finish.

Like I said above, I'm going to move on to Rottenstone next.  Once done I may do one last rub out with Novus 2 but will skip the paste wax.  All of the spraying I have done so far has been with spray cans.  I have an HVLP spray gun and an air compressor.  Once things start warming up in the spring I'll learn how to use it properly.  Once I've got the hang of it I'll wipe the cabinet down with mineral spirits to remove any residue that may be present from the Novus 2 and then apply mist coats as Kenny describes above.  If all goes well I should have a smooth semi-gloss finish that does not require any additional rubbing.

As usual, I'll post pictures along the way.

- Geoff

Well, I think I can say that I am finally done with the Philco 640 cabinet.  Here are the steps I followed since my last post:


1.)  I wet sanded everything again starting lightly with 500 grit, progressing to 1,000 and finally 1,500.
2.) I then went over the entire cabinet with 2 pieces of felt wrapped around a small flat block and 4F pumice stone and mineral oil.  Then wiped it clean with soft polishing cloths.
If anyone is thinking about using water with a few dabs of dishwashing detergent instead of mineral oil I would advise against it.  The soapy water left a somewhat cloudy finish while the mineral oil did not.  Plus, it seemed to provide more lubricity when rubbing out.
3.) I then went over the entire cabinet with 2 pieces of new felt wrapped around a small flat block and used Rottenstone and mineral oil.  Then wiped it clean with soft polishing cloths.  You need to use new felt that does not contain 4F pumice stone residue or you are defeating the purpose of the rottenstone.
4.) I then wiped off the entire cabinet with new polishing cloths and lemon oil to remove any residue.
This left a pretty shiny finish but still a little too hazy for my taste.  Plus, like I mentioned in previous posts, when viewed at certain angles you could see the very fine scratch marks from the 4F pumice stone and rottenstone.

I then went over the entire cabinet twice with Novus #2 polish.  This brought out the shine and did remove some of the finer scratches, but not all of them.  Here are the results:







Even after all that you can still see very fine scratch marks when viewed from certain angles.  Here is the top:



Here is the top when viewed from another angle:



Any white spots are just dust particles that needed to be wiped off.

I still may go back in the spring and do what Kenny Richmond described in the previous post.  From what I gathered, to get rid of these fine scratches you need to use a spray gun setup and apply a couple of very fine mist coats.  The result should be a smooth finish without the fine scratches.  We’ll see if I have the motivation for that come spring.  I have a cheapo $20- AEG 3064 cabinet that I bought in a thrift shop that I will use to practice using an HVLP gun.  If that goes well I may come back to the 640 cabinet.  We’ll see.  I’m actually pretty happy with the way it turned out.  It is still a shinier than I what I was after but not quire as shiny as the menzerna product I used in post #146.

Now onto the electronics.

The main reason I posted this long thread was to get pointers from those who know more about cabinet refinishing than myself and hopefully help others who have never tried refinishing their own cabinets.  I have learned a lot along the way and hope I others were able to learn something as well.

Regards,
Geoff

Final update on this cabinet. I found that by hand polishing the cabinet with swirl remover I was able to remove all the fine scratches that the Novus #2 did not get. The finish is as smooth as glass and like a mirror. I finished the electronics, put it all back together, and it plays like a champ!

BTW, I started on this project back in September of 2013    .


BEFORE











AFTER













- Geoff

You are kinda crazy...

 I would not bring that thing outside in the sun.. 
You could get arrested for blinding the pilot of the plane 4000 feet above you..

It really is ridiculously shiny... Gooooooooood job.... 

Great job, Geoff!

Question - exactly which "swirl remover" did you use? The Meguiar's mirror glaze, or something else?

I'm planning to use rottenstone (for the very first time ) on my Bozak cabinet tops and trim, and it sounds like the swirl remover may come in handy.

Great job!!

Beautiful!

Steve

(08-22-2016, 06:10 PM)Ron Ramirez Wrote: [ -> ]Great job, Geoff!

Question - exactly which "swirl remover" did you use? The Meguiar's mirror glaze, or something else?

I'm planning to use rottenstone (for the very first time ) on my Bozak cabinet tops and trim, and it sounds like the swirl remover may come in handy.

Ron,

I used the Meguiar's Swirl X Swirl Remover:



I applied it with a 3" polishing pad holder and an orange polishing pad.  You can get the holder here:

http://www.tcpglobal.com/TCP-BP-1064.html#.V7vc6JgrKUk



But just a word of warning on pumice and rottenstone.  I personally did not find it an enjoyable experience.  It was very messy and hard to tell when the polishing was complete.  If I were to do a gloss cabinet again I would probably just wet sand with increasing grits up to 2000 - 3000 then polish out with the Meguiar's.  Maybe I was just doing it wrong.  I don't know since it was my first time.  Maybe you will have better luck.

Having said that I still might give pumice and rottenstone a try after applying several coats of semi-gloss on a radio.

Either way, good luck and be sure to post photos!

 Great job!! I remember following your thread and the amount of work and perseverance that you put into restoring the cabinet.