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1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - Printable Version

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1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-13-2020

Greetings everyone, I had acquired from a local garage sale through Facebook Marketplace in the middle of last year a 1948 Westinghouse 1821 (182 according to Riders) Chassis Number V-2128 that for some reason or another won't pick up any stations on either the AM or FM Band and I checked the tubes and they all seemed to test fine, and I replaced almost all of the paper caps in this set except for 5 of them (which i didn't have them on hand at the moment) and the filter cap can I left in place because it was one of those Aerovox Dry Electrolytic Cans that I have yet to have one fail on me yet because my Philco 116B I have has 3 of them on its chassis and all 3 of them still work without any problems and I also have a 1942 Zenith 10S690 radio that also has one that is still good yet and I also had a 1932 Westinghouse Tombstone Radio that had some in them and they still worked on that as well, and This Westinghouse H-1821 has one as well and it doesn't have any hum to it yet either.

Anyways this Westinghouse H-1821 absolutely refuses to receive any stations whatsoever on either AM or FM its absolutely dead silent, and I don't know why it would be doing that. Odd part is, I had an old Philco 46-1203 AM Radio/Record player combo unit that the record player part worked perfect yet on its original crystal cartridge but the radio part wouldn't receive any radio stations and I couldn't figure out what was causing it to not recive radio signals, and so I scrapped it out, but this Westinghouse is doing the same thing as my old Philco 46-1203 did on me, except that this radio has the addition of an FM band that also isn't receiving signals.

Anyone have any ideas as to what I could look for as far as what might be causing this radio to not recieve any signals?

thanks for your help in this matter.

Levi

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - David - 04-13-2020

Check the speaker voice coil then the output transformer. Would be a good idea to replace the 5 paper caps and check resistors as you replace those caps. If not working then go back and double check  all your work. Good luck David

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - morzh - 04-13-2020

And do restuff or replace those aerovox cans. However they are behaving. Bad idea to not do it. Khm....very bad idea.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-13-2020

Why? They're dry electrolytics meaning there's nothing in them to dry out, meaning there's nothing in them to fail, as I said in my original post, every radio I've ever had so far that had Dry Electrolytics in them, have never failed, in fact that's what your modern electrolytics are, dry electrolytics, and they also have a very low failure rate.
I honestly don't see a reason to replace them when they are working just fine.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - rfeenstra - 04-13-2020

Hmmm.  They are " relatively" dry compared to the liquid filled Ecaps.  there is a paste in them and they still dry out and go bad.  I've had many a "modern" ecap go bad because they dried out.  Replace them!

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-13-2020

Quote:Check the speaker voice coil then the output transformer. Would be a good idea to replace the 5 paper caps and check resistors as you replace those caps. If not working then go back and double check  all your work. Good luck David


Thanks, I'll take a look at that, but I think the speaker is fine because I hear a low volume hum coming through the speaker meaning the speaker is working, its just not picking up any stations.

The only paper caps that are remaining are the two .05 MFD paper caps that are tied into the volume control/power switch and the other 3 are the .002 MFD 600 VDC paper caps (C29,C30 and C31) that are in the middle of the radio chassis. on a large terminal strip.

I've tested all of the IF and RF cans and they all seemed to have continuity, including the discriminator can.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-13-2020

Quote:Hmmm.  They are " relatively" dry compared to the liquid filled Ecaps.  there is a paste in them and they still dry out and go bad.  I've had many a "modern" ecap go bad because they dried out.  Replace them!


Mr. Feenstra, I am currently listening to a 1942 Zenith 10S690 radio/record player combo that I've had for nearly a year and it has nearly all of its original components in it yet (except one paper cap I replaced that was the coupling cap for the 2 6V6 output tubes) and the radio also has its original Aeorvox Dry Electrolytic can cap in the radio, and the radio is working flawlessly in fact I'm currently listening to a radio station out of Waterloo, Iowa right now and I live in Elkhart, Indiana (its a 50kW Blowtorch) and I'm not having a bit of problems with the radio picking the station. 

I also have a 1969 Pioneer SX-1000 TD Stereo Receiver that is working on almost all of its original components (except for the large coupling caps for the amplifier stage, which had to be replaced as the originals had failed which caused it to not put out any audio). 

In my opinion I don't see anything wrong with keeping these dry electrolytics in place as long as they are working fine, if the radio starts developing a hum then I will disconnect and replace the original can, but right now the radio is working just fine with the original can caps in place and its showing no signs of failing anytime soon. 

Actually the main reason why these can caps fail in the first place is because they were sitting unused for a long time in either an attic or a basement, when a radio is used on a regular basis it keeps the caps from drying out and deforming and failing.

I've also got a 1962 Motorola SP-29 IE Suitcase record player that is also still working on its original dry electrolytic can caps and it also has mylar caps in it so the record player is rock solid functonality wise, the only thing that doesn't function properly is the changer mechanism on the turntable which I've tried to fix it various times but with little success but it does still function audio wise.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - John Bartley - 04-14-2020

First of all, I think that the schematic I am attaching is correct, but .... be careful with it.

Second, the easiest and usually the fastest way to identify "why" something is not working is to trouble shoot it logically. Start by injecting an audio signal from your generator into the speaker and from there work back thru the stages until you get to the detector at which point you switch to the IF frequencies (different for AM and FM) and keep working back until you lose the signal.

The stage where you lose the signal is the problem.

The schematic (I think) ::

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/pagesbymodel/133/M0024133.pdf

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - morzh - 04-14-2020

The only true dry electrolytic capacitors are solid type tantalum and niobium ones, but they are neither rated for the voltages used in tube radios, nor were commercially available at the time of production.

Now, to be a bit stern, here you have people with tons of experience, some of whom, in addition to being experts in this hobby, are also electronics professionals.
So when several people here tell you the same thing, it is ok to question the reason for it, but to argue is ...let's just say that it does not help you.

With Ron's permission, I will re-quote his friend, Rev. Lowell Mason:


"You don't have to agree with me. You have every right to be wrong if you want to be."

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-14-2020

Quote:First of all, I think that the schematic I am attaching is correct, but .... be careful with it.

Second, the easiest and usually the fastest way to identify "why" something is not working is to trouble shoot it logically. Start by injecting an audio signal from your generator into the speaker and from there work back thru the stages until you get to the detector at which point you switch to the IF frequencies (different for AM and FM) and keep working back until you lose the signal.

The stage where you lose the signal is the problem.

Thanks, I already have a copy of the schematic and I've looked it over and it seems to be a pretty decent unit for being a series string set, the problem is, I don't have a signal generator, and I have tried to get my hands on one a couple of times through facebook market place but the people selling them weren't willing to meet me half way in between to pick it up (they were both located about an hour from me in Northeast Indiana) they wanted me to go to them to pick it up which while I have relatives that live over that way, I'm not super familiar with that area because I don't drive there that often.

so I don't know if I can get my hands on one or if anyone on here that lives nearby might have one they could lend me temporarily that would be great.

Thanks

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-14-2020

Quote:The only true dry electrolytic capacitors are solid type tantalum and niobium ones, but they are neither rated for the voltages used in tube radios, nor were commercially available at the time of production.

Now, to be a bit stern, here you have people with tons of experience, some of whom, in addition to being experts in this hobby, are also electronics professionals.
So when several people here tell you the same thing, it is ok to question the reason for it, but to argue is ...let's just say that it does not help you.

With Ron's permission, I will re-quote his friend, Rev. Lowell Mason:

"You don't have to agree with me. You have every right to be wrong if you want to be."

I'm not ignoring your advice, I'm just saying that in my opinion if the electrolytic caps are still working on these old radios I'd like to keep them in as long as they are working. 
When they start failing I will replace them, but in the meantime while they are still working I will keep using them.

And I'm not sure which Ron you're referring to here, but I don't think he would of actually of known Lowell Mason personally seeing as he passed away in 1872 and that would of been long before your friend Ron (whichever one you're referring to) would of been born, so there would of been no reason for getting his permission to use Lowell Mason's Quote, seeing as its Public Domain (as is all of his music).

I'm very familiar with Lowell Mason and his Music, I grew up in the Church and the church I go to we still sing those old Hymns and I have a hymnal collection consisting of over 60 Hymnals from various Denominations and Interdenominational Hymnals, my oldest hymnal being an old Methodist Hymnal dating to the 1830s (it was from the Methodist Church prior to their merger with the Evangelical United Brethen Church in the 1950s). 

I myself belong to a Church Denomination called the Church of the Brethren which is related to the Amish, Mennonites and the Quakers in that its one of the 4 Historic Peace Churches in America along with the rest of the aforementioned denominations. 

If you're at all Familiar with the church denominations like the Grace Brethren, Brethen in Christ (River Brethen), The Brethen Church (The Ashland Brethren), The Dunkard Brethren, The German Baptist Brethen,
The Ephrata Cloisters, in Ephrata, Pennsylvania, etc. those were all offshoots of the Church of the Brethen (which was originally called the German Baptist Brethren from the 1870s, up until 1908).

I hope this helps you out in seeing where I'm coming from in regards to my comments.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - EdHolland - 04-14-2020

Pardon my my interruption, but I have a suggestion to make.

Electrolytics can have health issues in at least two ways. One, mentioned, is that they lose capacitance from "drying out" and the equipment develops hum. The second issue that may occur is that internal leakage can increase, or even a short circuit develop. That may take out the rectifier and the power transformer if you are unlucky.

A more cautious approach would be to check the leakage current if you have the facility to measure it, or follow a more controlled reforming process. There are articles on-line on the subject of re-forming, for example:

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Restore_cap.html

https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/

I hope that is useful and interesting.

Ed

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - morzh - 04-14-2020

Ed

Electrolytics indeed could be reformed. I did that. But....is it worth it?
Also, reforming is the recommended procedure for NIB caps that overstayed their recommended shelf life, but are not really antique. For antique, especially well-used caps I am not sure it is a good idea.
In addition, electrolytic caps are limited life parts in the first place, and even though the real life vs minimum guranteed could be way longer, if the part is not used at close to max values of WV and RC, still in tens of years, after prolonged usage and then prolonged disuse, somehow it seems to me it should be retired.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - captainclock1988 - 04-14-2020

Quote:Electrolytics can have health issues in at least two ways. One, mentioned, is that they lose capacitance from "drying out" and the equipment develops hum. The second issue that may occur is that internal leakage can increase, or even a short circuit develop. That may take out the rectifier and the power transformer if you are unlucky.

A more cautious approach would be to check the leakage current if you have the facility to measure it, or follow a more controlled reforming process. There are articles on-line on the subject of re-forming, for example...

Thanks Ed, I will look into those Articles. I am familiar with using a variac and bringing a radio up to half power (60 volts) and then leaving it there for a few minutes to reform power supply capacitors and then bringing it up to full power after about 10 minutes or so of running.

I have seen repair videos online from people like Shango066 and Mr. Carlson's Lab where they do stuff like that (they do eventually replace the original electrolytics with new ones but they power them up that way just to test to see what the radio's current working order is as far as what kind of work its going to need).

I do have a variac, but that's about it, just the variac, I don't have a box or anything that its wired into.

RE: 1948 Westinghouse Model 1821 (182) audio problems - Ron Ramirez - 04-14-2020

A request:

Please stop using the color and size codes. It makes posts all but unreadable.

The preacher, Lowell T. Mason, who I knew (conservative Southern Baptist) was born in 1935 and died of cancer in 1988. Quite a man, he was. He may, or may not, have been named after the 19th century Lowell Mason. I do not know.

Ok, carry on...but let's be kind, alright? There's a pandemic out there...