54C Baffle - Printable Version
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RE: 54C Baffle - morzh - 10-02-2023
I am puzzled also about that GND that does not work.
RE: 54C Baffle - Patrick - 10-02-2023
Hi Ron.
The 12A8 and the 12SK7 both have pin 1 connected to chassis ground. The 12SQ7 DID have pin 1 connected to the chassis also. Just like yours. But the sound was garbled. I disconnected pin 1 of the 12SQ7 from chassis ground and instead connected it to B-. Now it works fine. I did use a PM speaker. Actually, the same one you used. I'm in the process of converting another 54C right now. We'll see if it acts the same.
RE: 54C Baffle - Patrick - 10-02-2023
I see the confusion on that post. It should have read "instead of ground", not "instead for ground".
RE: 54C Baffle - radiorich - 10-02-2023
Hello Patrick,
Sounds like you got winner and good luck with the second one I sure the team here would like to know how it turns out .
Sincerely Richard
RE: 54C Baffle - Ron Ramirez - 10-03-2023
Patrick,
You know, connecting pin 1 of that 12SQ7 means the metal shell of that tube is now connected directly to one side of the AC line! That, to me, is not a safe configuration.
Are you using a polarized AC cord and plug? Is the plug and cord configured so that neutral is connected to the wide blade, and the hot side to the narrow blade?
RE: 54C Baffle - Patrick - 10-03-2023
No. It's not a polarized plug. But I guess I should use one, with B- connected to the wide blade?
RE: 54C Baffle - Patrick - 10-03-2023
And I do have the back panal safety switch installed which ties to both hot and neutral.
RE: 54C Baffle - MrFixr55 - 10-03-2023
Sorry for the wordiness. My humble $0.02:
I never understood why just about every AA5 radio has the power switch between "B-" and the power cord. Is this to reduce hum?
In radios of this vintage, before metal tubes, the chassis was usually connected to B- via a cap or cap and resistor to get the chassis at B- potential for RF / AF but not for power. This is to reduce the possibility of electrocution before the advent of "double insulation", interlocks, etc. In act, on the latest AA5s I believe that the chassis is connected to B- because of double isulation and interlocks. Have to check the schematic for a late model. (You experts know all of this; I make this comment for Pholks new to the hobby.)
Prior to metal tubes, the IF and 1st AF tubes had metal can style shields that connected electrically to chassis GND. If the 1st AF tube had a grid cap (75, 6Q7, etc.) the grid wire was shielded or was also inside the can shield. Otherwise, the 1st AF stage was very unstable. Even in AA5s with miniature tubes (12AV6, etc.) that tube requires a shield connected to chassis.
Verify the following:
- Ensure that B- is at "Neutral" level and not "Hot" level. Some restorers use a polarized plug and place the power switch in the hot lead. The issue with the switch being in the B- leg instead of the "hot leg is that if the power plug is inserted so that switch is at neutral, with the switch open, the chassis is "hot" through the filament string and chassis is at neutral only if the switch is closed. Visa versa if the power plug is inserted so the switch is in the "hot lead of the power line. With the switch open, the chassis is cold but with the switch closed, the chassis is hot.
- For this post, B- is the negative of the B power supply terminal and the "low point" of the series filament string. GND is chassis ground. In most AA5 sets, there is either a
- Verify that the cap that connects B- to GND is the correct value. In the original schematic, this is the 0.05uF cap between the "black" lead (B-) and the cap can (GND) of cap a**'y #7.
- Ohm between the metal envelope of the 12SQ7 and its pin 1.
- With the tube in place, ohm between the tube envelope and chassis. This should be 0 Ohm.
- Verify continuity between GND, Pin 1 of the 12SQ7, 12SA7 and 12A8 (assuming that you moved 12SQ7 Pin 1 back to Chassis GND).
- Verify B- connections at 12SQ7 socket for filament, cathode, grid resistor return, etc. In this mod, did you retain the circuit as drawn for the 75 in the original schematic? I don't think that the 12SQ7 requires negative bias but if the grid resistor bias circuit was retained, ensure that the resistor is bypassed by the correct cap. If this was replaced by a cathode resistor, ensure that it is bypassed by a cap. (In RCA sets using a 12SQ7, the cathode and 4.7 MOhm grid resistor are directly connected to B-. If you retained the 75 circuit, this may be the issue.)
- If only 1 diode of the 12SQ7 is used, connect the other diode to the first diode or to B-.
- If all else fails, swap out the 12SQ7.
Hope this helps. I have gotten my "U know what" kicked by simple issues on simple radios on more than one occasion!
RE: 54C Baffle - Ron Ramirez - 10-03-2023
Patrick Wrote:But I guess I should use (a polarized plug), with B- connected to the wide blade?
Yes!!! Safety first!
It may well be that by using a polarized plug, and ensuring B- is tied to AC neutral and not hot, that then you may be able to once again connect pin 1 of the 12SQ7 to chassis, as my 54 is.
Also please take note of John's (MrFixr) comments - and John, thanks for weighing in here.
John, yes, manufacturers used the AC switch in the neutral side of the line in an effort to reduce hum. They also did not use polarized plugs back when these sets were being made.
I use a polarized cord and plug on any AC/DC set I work on, whether it is modified (like my 54C) or otherwise kept stock. I also change the wiring so the AC switch is in the hot lead instead of the neutral. I have not noticed any increase in hum in the sets I have changed the switch wiring on in this manner.
RE: 54C Baffle - Ron Ramirez - 10-03-2023
John (MrFixr)
FYI, here is the schematic for the modified 54C:
https://ronsradios.com/images/54_schem_Rev5.jpg
Note that the cathode of the 12SQ7 connects directly to B-, and the grid is biased with a 3.3 meg resistor, also connected to B-.
RE: 54C Baffle - Patrick - 10-03-2023
"It may well be that by using a polarized plug, and ensuring B- is tied to AC neutral and not hot, that then you may be able to once again connect pin 1 of the 12SQ7 to chassis, as my 54 is."
I'll try that.
RE: 54C Baffle - morzh - 10-03-2023
Honestly, I am not a fan of using ANY pin of the AC outlet, Hot or Neutral, as a GND for a tube case.
What I do not like about this whole situation is there is an unanswered question to a problem, whose solution requires some safety compromise. Especially considering there is an implementation (Ron's) that is known to work.
RE: 54C Baffle - Ron Ramirez - 10-03-2023
> Honestly, I am not a fan of using ANY pin of the AC outlet, Hot or Neutral, as a GND for a tube case.
I totally agree.
The only connection the chassis of my modified 54C has to the neutral side of the line is through a 150K resistor, as was typical of many five tube AC/DC radios.
RE: 54C Baffle - Patrick - 10-04-2023
We have success! Using a polarized plug, and making sure B- is tied to neutral, I was able to tie pin 1 to gnd. No more garble, and we are as protected as possible. Of course, with the safety switch in, it disconnects both hot and neutral when the back is removed. Thanks to all.
RE: 54C Baffle - morzh - 10-04-2023
Better.