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Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Printable Version

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RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Paul Philco322 - 05-27-2013

Good luck Ron, I do not know why but I have always liked that little Clock radio set. I think it is because at the meets and all you always see plastic Clock Radio sets, the Philco wood version has a very distinguished 1940's look.

Hope you get that junk off.

Paul

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Steve Davis - 05-27-2013

Ron, I still have trouble with grain filler. I've been working on an 89B cabinet and had to go back and spot fill a couple of places. I feel for you though, if you discover a problem after the toner has been applied, you really have no choice but to sand the toner off. Been there done that.Icon_sad

Steve

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Ron Ramirez - 05-27-2013

Okay, Steve and Bob:

Level with me (no pun intended). Just what is the secret of filling grain? Repeated applications until the cabinet refuses to take any more? Or must you perform a special voodoo ceremony over the cabinet as you apply grain filler?

My Constantine's grain filler has become very lumpy over the winter, to the point of being all but unusable. I think this was the main reason why it didn't work on the 38-2670.

So this afternoon, I've been trying CrystaLac again, on the 610T.

It seems to have filled 95% or better of the grain - but the more it hardens, the more it becomes hard as a rock and more resistant to sandpaper. (And the label says "Easy Sanding!" Easy sanding, my foot!) I'm going to have to get a razor blade and scrape the remainder of the excess, after sanding until I have blisters on my fingers.

Why the H**l can't someone invent something that can be easily rubbed into the grain, the excess easily removed against the grain, and that fills on the first application? Oh, and is easily sandable? A "Grain Fill for Dummies," if you will? (And did I mention "easily"?)

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Ron Ramirez - 05-27-2013

So, while I wait for an answer from one of the experts, let me tell you about the rest of the afternoon.

Finished removing the excess CrystaLac by scraping with a blade, after it got too hard to sand.

Before I wasted more toner, I decided to try a test first this time. I gave the 610T a good coat of sanding sealer.

This revealed the flaws - the front panel is more like 60-70% filled. The top and sides - around 25% or less filled.

I just ordered some fresh Constantines walnut wood filler - this time, a pint size can that hopefully will not go bad before I use it all.

And I can either go buy some lacquer thinner and remove the lacquer from the 38-2670, or just use the acetone I have and remove both lacquer and what little grain filler it has. H**l, I might as well just do that, and start over from scratch.

And I see that I'm running out of Medium Walnut toner - the color I need most. Icon_rolleyes

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - morzh - 05-27-2013

The more I read this the more I feel I should've stuck with radios with good cabinets and bad electronics and not buy that 37-116 which is a handful without the cabinet work.

Vei'z mir!

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Ron Ramirez - 05-27-2013

Oh, you can do it. Try not to mind my discouraging words - I was mainly blowing off steam.

I remembered that I had achieved good results last year with my Tropic 42-761 and Constantines grain filler...which is why I ordered a fresh pint of the stuff. Also ordered some more toning lacquer from the Wood Finishers Store in California. I'm not giving up yet! Icon_thumbup

While I'm waiting for that to come in, I'll work more on my website and may do some veneer repair to the 39-330AT and 41-256.

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Marsupial - 05-28-2013

Be happy. At least you HAVE grain filler. This thing seems impossible to acquire north of the borders!
I've been doing OK with lepage wood filler. Maybe you should try instead of that constantine crap? Icon_razz

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Bob Andersen - 05-28-2013

Hi Ron. My cans of Constantines are a couple years old now but still work fine. I think it was lumpy when I first opened them and still is. I scoop out some of the lumps into a small plastic cup and mix with mineral spirits until it's the consistency of heavy cream.

I then apply it to the wood with a chip brush make sure to work it into the grain and leave plenty of excess. Once it dries to a greyish color but before it's hard, I start scraping the excess at a 45 degree angle with a credit card. If I spot any voids, I work some of the now putty like filler into them. Before the filler completely hardens, I do some scraping with the grain to eliminate are 45 degree angle marks left from the initial scraping.

Sometimes I'll do a second pass if the grain was especially open and difficult to fill. I then let it cure for a few days. Then, I spray on a couple coats of lacquer sanding sealer, let it dry and sand with 320 going with the grain. I fill in any remain imperfections with sanding sealer rather than trying more filler.

Good luck!

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Electrothaumaturgist - 05-28-2013

Ha! I knew I couldn't be the only one with filler problems! Well at least in my case, the filler came out pretty good, however, no stain or anything I used on it would stick! (I even had a can of 50+ year old Dutch oil stain, which gave the top a nice original-ish look, but seemed to repel away from the filled spots). And no, you need not utilize Voodoo for this application. I could conjure up a quick little spell for you, if you'd like. (How do you think I got the 42-400 up and running and looking so good? It certainly cannot be attributed to my vast skills of electrical endeavor, nor cabinetry accreditation). You must allow the unseen hand to guide yours and massage the machinery to your liking. ( P.S. It doesn't hurt to have a reliquary close at hand, just for good measure) Icon_angel

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Bob Andersen - 05-28-2013

They recommend applying stain before the filler or just use toner lacquer. That being said, I have applied stain over Constantines without any problems. What brand filler did you use?

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Electrothaumaturgist - 05-28-2013

I did not realize until after the fact that I should have used the toner lacquer. I think that the cabinet top would have looked even more original, and probably would have gone right over any spots. The filler I used was a name brand, although I don't recall exactly what, as I pitched it after seeing the results. I finally was able to get it on using the 50+ year old stain, and a little emulsification of other ancient "ointments" from the reliquary. Icon_e_biggrin

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Eliot Ness - 06-03-2013

I appreciate all of your refinishing updates and reports, it is a good primer for others just starting out. Grain filling has always been the Achilles Heel for many of us. I haven't done any finishing for a while, but it seems like it was Constantines that I always used. I was tempted to try some CrystaLac until I read about your experience with it!

Hang in there and keep the updates coming, even if it takes a secret voodoo ceremony Icon_wink

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Eliot Ness - 06-03-2013

Ron, I forgot to mention something that may or may not be useful to you or others. When I was visiting Kenny (of Richmond Designs) a couple of months back I tried to soak up as much knowledge as possible while watching him work. The first thing I noticed was he is using Hide Glue. He kept a little hot plate with a little double boiler of sorts going almost all of the time. There is an art to it and you want to keep it at about 140 degrees and occasionally add water to keep it the right consistency.

It was extremely fascinating to watch him work with the Hide Glue because it seemed so easy to work with and mistakes were easily corrected by the application of more glue or the use of heat. The use of animal or protein glue is almost becoming a lost art in the U.S., but there are still some sources and videos available. Patrick Edwards is a craftsman who does some incredible inlay work and he uses Hide glue exclusively. Below is a website that has some interesting glue videos as well as other wood related videos such as veneering, etc.:

http://woodtreks.com/animal-protein-hide-glues-how-to-make-select-history/1549/

Patrick Edwards has to buy his glue in 50 lb batches, but he has a site where he'll sell glue in both dry granulated or a premixed (just heat and use) version:

http://www.oldbrownglue.com/index.html

Another interesting video he has is on veneering and using a veneer hammer (more like a veneer squeegee) without clamping. Of course the whole secret to using this method is Hide Glue. I saw Kenny doing some intricate inlay work with this process and the results are impressive.

http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/

What struck me most about the whole process is the concept of not worrying that the glue is on the surface of the wood prior to finishing. As Patrick mentions in the video that the glue is not a problem for stains and finishes, you just sand or scrape off the excess from the surface.

I was impressed enough by the videos and watching Kenny in person that I'll be ordering some of Patrick's Old Brown Glue and some granulated to mix up my own and do some experimenting. Now to go off and search for a veneer hammer and a small double boiler.

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Paul Philco322 - 06-04-2013

Makes me want to collect only Bakelite sets!

Paul

RE: Ron's Cabinet Work for the 2013 Season - Arran - 06-04-2013

That hot plate/double boiler thing is called a glue pot, you still see them around from time to time at garage sales and flea markets, needless to say there is not a large market for them anymore. Hide glue does have some advantages but is has many more disadvantages. Ever wonder why old chairs have every joint loose? Answer, hide glue. Ever wonder why drawers fall apart in an old dresser? Hide glue. Ever wonder why the veneer is lifting off a radio cabinet? Hide glue.
I knew a fellow who tried some hide glue, he saw it on a PBS documentary about radio collectors. The guys on there swore by the stuff, and the kind they were using was pre mixed in a bottle much like the yellow glue. He tried gluing something structural together with it, let it cure long and hard, took the clamps off, a day later, "Sproing", popped apart again. There could be a number of reasons for this but he went back and reglued it with carpenters yellow glue and it stayed put.
Hide glue has virtually no resistance to moisture. It also has a habit of crystallizing on it's own, turning to dust, and just falling apart. Maybe it's fine for veneer if used the right way but I would not trust it to hold a cabinet leg in place.
Regards
Arran