Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262

Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Printable Version

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RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Ron Ramirez - 01-10-2015

What? Suddenly "mafiamen2" is now "sam"?!?!?!? Icon_wtf

Well...OK! Icon_smile

Anyway...

sam Wrote:you probably left poor zenith in a room filled with brutal philco tropics

Whatever happened, the Zenith is working now. It was either one of the questionable solder joints, or applying the DeoxIT to the switches, or tightening up the coil shields (and adding a missing nut). I don't know. Icon_crazy

I did not do any more radio work this evening, but I did go to the basement a while ago and played the Zenith some more. Tuned in some SW...listened to AM 740 out of Toronto for a little while...but mostly listened to my SSTRAN on 660. No problems. No cutting out. Nothing but music and other programming.

I'll play it some more tomorrow, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it is fixed.

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - morzh - 01-10-2015

Sam probably thought the name is not apropriate for a moderator. Icon_lol

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Ron Ramirez - 01-15-2015

Icon_lol

Well, it's been five days, and I thought I should check in here and tell you folks that I have played this radio every day this week for at least a few hours at a time. Sometimes I will tune around to different stations; other days, I have just left it tuned to my SSTRAN at 660 kc. Last night, I tried tuning across the 49m SW band, and tuned in Radio Slovakia International in English. It reminded me of the good old days when I was a teenager and there were lots of SW stations from many different countries on the air. For the most part, as many of you know, those days are gone with the advent of the internet and streaming audio.

If I do leave it at 660, though, I will at least tune it above and below that frequency a couple of times during each listening session.

Not once has it acted up in any way since I pulled it out and went over it again.

So I think that it is fixed, good to go and ready to launch. Icon_thumbup

And Geoff, I don't think I ever answered your question about the acoustic adapter behind the speaker - yes, this radio does have one.

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - morzh - 01-15-2015

So, Ron,

An honest answer Icon_smile

: when playing SSTRAN (a good way to evluate acoustic performance), how in your opinion does this radio stack up against Philco non-high fidelity consoles (not the likes of 37-116 but more like ...18, 111 and such)?

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Ron Ramirez - 01-15-2015

Well, Mike,

The sound is a bit bassy with the tone control set to "Hi-Fidelity"...but this is, after all, AM radio and the 9-S-262 does not have the variable IF bandwidth of a 37-116.

The sound quality is comparable, I think, to a Philco 118 or 650. Which is probably as close to "apples to apples" as I can get. I would say more like the 650 than the 118. I am going from memory here as I do not have a 118 or 650 console.

I would classify the 9-S-262's sound as definitely better than a 111. The 111's speaker is handicapped by that solid spider that greatly dampens the speaker's performance. With an open spider as on a 112 speaker, the 111's sound will be greatly improved but I would still say the 9-S-262 is better.

The 9-S-262 does produce a pleasing, mellow sound. The acoustic adapter is a good add-on, I think.

I forgot to mention: This set sounds very impressive to have a single ended audio output. The 118 and 650 utilize push-pull outputs.

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - thirtiesradio - 01-16-2015

Very nice Ron Icon_smile

Did you end up fixing the slow motor drive?

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Arran - 01-16-2015

(01-15-2015, 10:34 PM)Ron Ramirez Wrote: Well, Mike,

The sound is a bit bassy with the tone control set to "Hi-Fidelity"...but this is, after all, AM radio and the 9-S-262 does not have the variable IF bandwidth of a 37-116.

The sound quality is comparable, I think, to a Philco 118 or 650. Which is probably as close to "apples to apples" as I can get. I would say more like the 650 than the 118. I am going from memory here as I do not have a 118 or 650 console.

I would classify the 9-S-262's sound as definitely better than a 111. The 111's speaker is handicapped by that solid spider that greatly dampens the speaker's performance. With an open spider as on a 112 speaker, the 111's sound will be greatly improved but I would still say the 9-S-262 is better.

The 9-S-262 does produce a pleasing, mellow sound. The acoustic adapter is a good add-on, I think.

I forgot to mention: This set sounds very impressive to have a single ended audio output. The 118 and 650 utilize push-pull outputs.

Ron;
I think it would take a side by side "shootout" to really narrow it down. As far as I can see the Brand Z sets used speakers that were sourced from an outside manufacturer like Utah or Lansing, so they may have had the edge in quality over the speakers that Philco built in house. As for the single ended output it looks like this set uses a feedback loop to eliminate some of the distortion, from the plate of the 6F5 back to the grid of the 6F5 through C14, since it does not have a pair of push pull outputs to do the same. The acoustical adapter is just a baffle of course to absorb and redirect some of the sound coming out the speaker rather then having a wall or an acoustical labyrinth do this, some Rogers built sets used a device called a "Chladni Disc" which supposedly performed a similar function.
Regards
Arran

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Ron Ramirez - 01-16-2015

(01-16-2015, 02:34 AM)Arran Wrote: I think it would take a side by side "shootout" to really narrow it down.

I agree. But since I do not own a Philco 118 or 650 console anymore, I had to rely on memory.

I was just revisiting the 9-S-262 schematic, and I think a better "apples to apples" comparison would be to compare the 9-S-262 to a Philco 144 or 630. Looking at the 9-S-262 schematic, it has separate mixer and oscillator tubes and separate 2nd detector and 1st audio amp tubes. It uses a tuning eye where Philco used shadowmeters. When you take out the eye tube, combine 6L7 and 6J5 functions into a 6A7, and combine 6H6 and 6F5 into a 6Q7 (75), your 9 tube radio becomes a 6 tube radio.

The 630X sounds good (as with the others I mentioned, I no longer own a 630X), but I would have to say the 9-S-262 sounds better.

I thought the Zenith speaker looked like a Magnavox, but I could be wrong. I think Magnavox became one of Philco's suppliers after 1938 when Philco stopped making their own speakers and began buying them from outside sources.

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - morzh - 01-16-2015

Arran

Where do you see a feedback?
C14 is not a feedback, it is a filter (notice where the left end onnects other than the grid - to practically GND) and C16 is dumb tone control cap from plate to practically GND.

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Eliot Ness - 01-16-2015

Good job Ron! Icon_thumbup

Since your daughter isn't a collector and probably won't be DXing the AM and shortwave bands how about putting a small FM converter in it for them. Those little units made for cars work very good, are easy to conceal in a console, and are pretty easy to install. Although those converters are going up in price, they can still be found pretty cheap. Terry Layman wrote about doing that in an old Service Bench article, has done several for customers, and reports they work out rather well. If you can't find the issue I can e-mail you a copy from my MSARC newsletter archives. Below is an article about the same (although less detailed) from ARC:

http://www.antiqueradio.com/Aug06_Smith_FM.html

You might also want to consider adding a jack for an MP3 player. Either way it would be nice for them to get some use out of that nice radio since, if their local AM programming is anything like ours, sucks Icon_silent

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Arran - 01-17-2015

(01-16-2015, 09:46 AM)morzh Wrote: Arran

Where do you see a feedback?
C14 is not a feedback, it is a filter (notice where the left end onnects other than the grid - to practically GND) and C16 is dumb tone control cap from plate to practically GND.

Mike;
I see it now, your are right it is a tone compensation cap, it is slightly above true ground but still not a feedback loop, I must have been looking at that late at night, or I am not used to the way the Brand Z draftsmen chose to draw things. Just the same it is a bit of an unusual arrangement since there is also C17 between the plate and cathode of the 6F6 tube. Just like a Philco though, Brand Z chose to use rotary switches for what I assume are bass and treble controls, which would annoy me. I guess it was cheaper then adding a pair of pots like an RCA would have, though I'm not sure why it would be. But then again RCA and Philco liked to connect their tone controls right in the B+ circuit of the audio output tube, which is bad news if the coupling cap on a pot should short out.
Regards
Arran

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - morzh - 01-17-2015

Philco tone control is more robust though requires rebuilding when being restored (usually a potted pocket with caps routed to switch) whereas Zenith tone control is a regular packet rotary switch with caps explicitly soldered to it.
This is much simpler to tackle but the switch is one wafer, brittle and requires extreme being careful when pulling the chassis out as the switch is the topmost point of the chassis and catches with the top of the back of the cabinet when the chassis is being pulled. Don't ask me how I found out Icon_lol

and how I remedied it but I usually warn everybody, as even experienced people often overlook this - as I found out, I am not the only one.

As for the C17 and the "unusual arrangement", if you look at the Philco 66 sch, for example, you will find exact same cap (part of the cap 34, tone control) of exactly the same value in the exact same place permanently wired across P-K of the 42 output pentode. I saw similar arrangement in other radios too.

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/PagesByModel/827/M0013827.pdf

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Ron Ramirez - 01-17-2015

(01-16-2015, 12:03 PM)Eliot Ness Wrote: Good job Ron!

Since your daughter isn't a collector and probably won't be DXing the AM and shortwave bands how about putting a small FM converter in it for them.
<snip>
You might also want to consider adding a jack for an MP3 player. Either way it would be nice for them to get some use out of that nice radio since, if their local AM programming is anything like ours, sucks

You mean you get tired of hearing "From high atop Kincaid Towers in beautiful downtown Lexington, hi again everybody, this is Ralph Hacker and this is Cat Calls..."

Oh, wait, he's retired. Icon_lol

To be serious now...those are both good ideas and I appreciate your bringing that up. I've also considered installing a Bluetooth receiver to plug into a 1/8" stereo jack, installed in the back of the set. That way they could stream whatever they wanted from their iPhone, my Phone, your Phone, his Phone, her Phone. Icon_smile

Or they could use the jack for an mp3 player.

There is some seller that is refurbishing Mid Century Modern style console stereos and adding Bluetooth receivers to each one. His prices are astronomic, but he appears to be selling at least some of them. Some MCM aficionados, as in all hobbies and interests, have more money than sense. Icon_crazy

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Arran - 01-18-2015

(01-17-2015, 01:00 PM)morzh Wrote: Philco tone control is more robust though requires rebuilding when being restored (usually a potted pocket with caps routed to switch) whereas Zenith tone control is a regular packet rotary switch with caps explicitly soldered to it.
This is much simpler to tackle but the switch is one wafer, brittle and requires extreme being careful when pulling the chassis out as the switch is the topmost point of the chassis and catches with the top of the back of the cabinet when the chassis is being pulled. Don't ask me how I found out and how I remedied it but I usually warn everybody, as even experienced people often overlook this - as I found out, I am not the only one.

As for the C17 and the "unusual arrangement", if you look at the Philco 66 sch, for example, you will find exact same cap (part of the cap 34, tone control) of exactly the same value in the exact same place permanently wired across P-K of the 42 output pentode. I saw similar arrangement in other radios too.

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/PagesByModel/827/M0013827.pdf

No;
The unusual arrangement is having a tone compensation cap between the plate circuit and ground on the 6F5 first audio tube, the one between plate and cathode on the second audio tube is quite normal, and it's a better arrangement then RCA used where they would connect the tone compensation cap between the two outer legs of the output transformer primary where you need a 1kv cap to prevent failure.
Regards
Arran

RE: Here we go with a Brand Z 9-S-262 - Arran - 01-18-2015

(01-16-2015, 07:57 AM)Ron Ramirez Wrote:
(01-16-2015, 02:34 AM)Arran Wrote: I think it would take a side by side "shootout" to really narrow it down.

I agree. But since I do not own a Philco 118 or 650 console anymore, I had to rely on memory.

I was just revisiting the 9-S-262 schematic, and I think a better "apples to apples" comparison would be to compare the 9-S-262 to a Philco 144 or 630. Looking at the 9-S-262 schematic, it has separate mixer and oscillator tubes and separate 2nd detector and 1st audio amp tubes. It uses a tuning eye where Philco used shadowmeters. When you take out the eye tube, combine 6L7 and 6J5 functions into a 6A7, and combine 6H6 and 6F5 into a 6Q7 (75), your 9 tube radio becomes a 6 tube radio.

The 630X sounds good (as with the others I mentioned, I no longer own a 630X), but I would have to say the 9-S-262 sounds better.

I thought the Zenith speaker looked like a Magnavox, but I could be wrong. I think Magnavox became one of Philco's suppliers after 1938 when Philco stopped making their own speakers and began buying them from outside sources.

Whilst it seems like tube stuffing a chassis on brand Zs part having separate oscillator and mixer tubes is actually a meaningful improvement to a radio. Having separate tubes for the mixer/detector and local oscillator reduces noise and allows more stable operation at higher frequencies then a pentagrid converter like a 6A8 or a 6A7. However the G versions of each have a higher inter-electrode capacity then the metal versions of each type, not that any of this matters at anything 22 mc and bellow.
With regards to the 6H6 second detector/avc and the 6F5 that may or may not an example of tube stuffing depending one how the 6H6 is connected. More often then not though they wired both diodes in the 6H6 in parallel or connected the plate and cathode together on one side so it didn't do anything, in such cases it was a waste of a tube socket really since a 6R7 or a 6Q7 would have done the same job. I do have a set where they rigged up the two sections of the 6H6 as an AVC voltage doubler though.
Regards
Arran