Restoration Cost question - Printable Version
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Restoration Cost question - CJK - 08-01-2014
Background:
I'm currently in the process of seeking a qualified restorer for my console radio.
So, the question is: as I'm searching what is the typical cost (range) I can expect for a full electronic restoration for a 1939 model 39-31XF.
I hope this in the right forum?
Thank you
RE: Restoration Cost question - morzh - 08-01-2014
Yes, this is the right Phorum.
Depends on what you are looking for in the restoration?
Full rewiring?
Cassis cleaned/rust removed/plated or painted, or polished or simply cleaned of dirt and heavy rust? Or just dirt?
Original capacitors preserved and restuffed, or removed and repaced with modern, or preserved and bypassed with modern?
Resistors - modern straight or made up to look as original dogbones?
The price might deend on whether you have open coils, bad transformers etc, which is not known.
Some folks who are almost full time into it might just give you an upfront price, some might base it on the actual chassis for which they will need to have it for evaluation.
Also, when you say "qualify", any prticular criteria the prospective restorer has to meet?
Would you be willing to send the chassis out of state or you are only looking for local person and you will be hand delivering/picking up the chassis?
What do you think your budget is? (a radio can be made to play on a tight budget and it will be a reliable repair, but not full restoration, of which, as said before, degrees also vary).
RE: Restoration Cost question - klondike98 - 08-01-2014
Welcome to the Phorum!!
I understand you are just trying to get a range, but its tough to do that. Reproduction knobs, buttons and dial window will run you about $80 plus shipping. A speaker could be anywhere between $25-$50. The capacitors and resistors that will need to be replaced will probably be $20 - $30. The chassis probably has the rubber wiring that 1939 models had and it will need to be replaced (mostly labor cost but tedious to do). Then as morzh mentioned it depends on what else is needs cleaning and work. If you look at RadioDaze.com their "calculator" for repair (to just get the radio playing) for an 6 tube radio is $150. That basically gets the radio running assuming the parts are all there to start with. So with that info I'd be looking at $300 for the low end of the repair range. Just my guess for what its worth..
Other folks will have other opinions I'm sure.
RE: Restoration Cost question - morzh - 08-01-2014
When you say "full electronic restoration" on the set with rubber wiring...assume the worst.
RE: Restoration Cost question - Arran - 08-01-2014
I can sort of give an estimate as I have carried out electronic restorations for people before. First of all if it's a 1939 model year Philco the power transformer has rubber/gutta percha insulated wires, and they MUST be replaced, some of the other wires it depends on the condition, if it is still soft and flexible.
The 1939 Philco models typically used Bakelite knobs, so if they are all there they do not need to be replaced. However if the set has pushbuttons the pushbuttons were made out of Tenite plastic which usually deteriorates, warps, cracks, falls apart, so those typically need replacing. The dial and the plastic lens may or may not need replacing, it depends on what shape they are in. The dial escutcheon is brass, so if it's there it will just need to be cleaned up and possibly repainted at worst.
The 39-31X is the console version of a Philco model 39-30, Bob Andersen has a restoration series on You Tube if you want to watch it, and there are a few restoration threads about 39-30-s and similar sets on the forums as well.
Barring anything seriously wrong, such as burned out coils, a power transformer, and assuming a bad output transformer, and a rewire, capacitors, resistors, I would guess about $125-150 or so, that's just the electrical part, at the higher end if it needs tubes. If the power transformer is bad $200+. I may be a bit low though, but restoring a radio isn't like painting a fence, you can't just look at it and say it will take X number of gallons.
Regards
Arran
RE: Restoration Cost question - morzh - 08-01-2014
Arran
Have you counted labor when you estimated this?
The output xfmr alone is $40 or so if you buy Hammond 125 series.
A person who will do the restoration will work for american money. And now that it is being seriously discussed that Mikey D patty flippers must earn over $10/hr....you probably counted parts only when you said $125. The power tranny alone could be half that plus it is heavy and the shipping is exensive.
Unless someone does it for free charging parts only, I tend to agree with Klondike's estimate.
And NJ is one of the expensive parts of the US.
RE: Restoration Cost question - Arran - 08-01-2014
Mike,
Please re-read what I wrote. No I did not include the power transformer (If needed), nor the shipping, nor a speaker, nor cosmetic parts such as repro pushbuttons, dial lens, dial scale etc, those would add at least another $150-200 if it needs those. Just capacitors, resistors, wire solder, and maybe a used tube or two, and an output transformer NOTHING else. Since this is a radio with a single ended #42/6F6 it would get the generic AES transformer, or one salvaged from a junker, or one from edcore:
https://www.edcorusa.com/xseseries
or one of these:
https://www.edcorusa.com/gxseseries
It makes no sense to use a $40 universal output transformer from Hammond in a set like this while there are ones less then half the price. Hammond is almost a boutique brand these days, any replacement part they offer is at least 30% more then the next comparable make, which is why most radio parts houses offer generic substitutes.
As for the burger flippers at Mcdonalds they may find that they get their $10+ an hour only to be replaced by a machine a few months later Markets to do work by government fiat, around here they jacked up the minimum wage by $1 an hour, so the restaurants cut back on their operating hours closing earlier, opening later.
Given markets we have to be realistic here, would anyone out there pay $500+ for a 39-31X restored? Well the original poster just contacted me and he got a quote for between $795-895 from a so called "Professional", and no that did not include the cabinet. I don't know about you but I simply cannot see $800 worth of parts and labor in a six tube radio, even a rubber wire special. He was also ruminating about refinishing the cabinet for this fellow's set in polyurethane, which does not say much about his professionalism in my opinion.
Regards
Arran
RE: Restoration Cost question - morzh - 08-01-2014
Arran,
If you reread my post, I did not count the power tranny in the initial calc, as I was following yours. I added it in your second scenario where it might be bad.
and, no, I do not see $800 either. But not $120-150 either. This is why I asked about the degree of the resto job. Caps restuffed etc - I say $350 easy. Labour included.
$800 is a bit insane.
RE: Restoration Cost question - Arran - 08-02-2014
Mike,
Nope, no retuffing either, I've offered that service to a few people and nobody could see the use in that, nor in using cloth wire. These chassis use mostly the tubular type paper capacitors anyhow, except maybe the line capacitor. I don't even bother with restuffing paper caps unless the set is all original, or there is something unique about it, even so I don't find it that labor intensive since I usually cook out several at a time in an old toaster oven, then clean off the residue from the outside of the shells with lacquer thinner, that would add about an extra two hours of labor onto a set like this
Sometimes I will restuff a cardboard tube electrolytic in an AC/DC radio since it takes as much time to mount a terminal strip, and to wire everything to it, as it does to stuff some radial lead electrolytics, with leads, in the old tube.
As I said the power transformer being shot would easily put it up over the $200 range, even with a salvaged one, fortunately you could use an off the shelf replacement either from Edcor or from AES, which of course would push it closer to the $300 range.
https://www.edcorusa.com/xpwrseries-1#/specFilters=8m!#-!327&pageSize=25&orderBy=0&pageNumber=1
Quite frankly if the power transformer was shot in something like this I would probably suggest either abandoning the project or picking up a parts chassis, 39-30s/31XFs seem to be fairly common. The output transformer may or may not be shot, the single ended ones seem to hold up better then the push pull ones in Philcos from this era, in some cases it may have been replaced in a previous repair with an aftermarket one. His biggest issue is going to be to find another speaker, the original is missing, but I have seen 10'' and 12'' console speakers show up fairly regularly on that auction site.
The cosmetic stuff I don't even take into account, I just tell the customer where to get it and let them handle it, like I did with this fellow, other then installing the parts in the set for them. I don't really see the sense of acting as a go between since there are not really any special skills involved to contact Larry Bordanaro or Renovated Radios and put an order in.
Regards
Arran
RE: Restoration Cost question - GarySP - 08-02-2014
Welcome to the forum, CKJ. All the scenarios you heard from the others are very true indeed. Asking how much it will cost to restore a radio is like asking how long is a piece of string. No one gets rich doing this, or everybody would be doing it. And, with rare exception, the time and materials far outweigh the worth of the completed project. Most of us work on these old sets for the enjoyment factor of the hobby, and the satisfaction of having a piece of history returned to glory. 90 percent of the restoration is tedious, but simple to do. If you choose to do it you have lots of folks here more than willing to talk you through it. Take care, Gary
RE: Restoration Cost question - Eric Adams - 08-02-2014
Hey Guys, I think all of your discussions have scared him away.
RE: Restoration Cost question - CJK - 08-02-2014
I'm here thanks for the replies
RE: Restoration Cost question - morzh - 08-02-2014
Arran,
Yes what you have described is not labor intensive, that is bare minimum to make a chassis play considering there are no open coils, bad rubber wiring and shot transformers of any kind.
But this is not a given.
RE: Restoration Cost question - gregb - 08-02-2014
I have repaired/restored thousands of radios of this description and without any coil or transformer issues and like Aaron said a used tube or two I would see about a $250-$300 repair for this one. Cosmetics other than running the vacuum through it would be extra and if the cabinet needs to be refinished that would be extra as well. I do two or three of this type repair a week and I find major problems are very rare so that price should be close.
Gregb
RE: Restoration Cost question - Arran - 08-02-2014
I'm getting a little bit frustrated here with having to repeat myself, of course I am including the rotted wiring, I've only mentioned this several times. What's the big deal with the rubber wire anyhow? Changing out wires is no different then changing out a leaky capacitor or a bad resistor, you replace one wire at a time from terminal "A" to terminal "B". The worst sets to deal with are ones where someone has messed with the wiring, or clipped things out, or added crap, where I have to trace out everything.
Why is someone still insisting that I am leaving something out, it's like I'm being cross examined? I'd really like to know why every comma and every period I write is being scrutinized for my estimate more so then the so called "professional" that quoted $795-$895 for the job, on a 6 tube radio??? It makes me wonder about his level of productivity? What does he do spend two hours changing one capacitor? Rewiring, new caps, new resistors, and possibly an output transformer, since they were iffy in this generation of Philcos, plus tubes (if needed). He already needs a speaker so there's up to another $50 right there for a replacement.
Regards
Arran