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Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Printable Version

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Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-12-2016

Hi all! I just got a Philco 370 chairside that's going to need some serious veneer help for the top surface. It's in really rough shape with large pieces of veneer missing:

[Image: http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w374/slingn/Philco%20370%20Lazyboy%20II/20160612_153808_zpsallmj1dy.jpg]

For reference, here is a picture of what the veneer should look like:

[Image: http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w374/slingn/Philco%20370%20Lazyboy/20160612_160509_zpsv8dk3had.jpg]

It sure seems like my best bet would be to replace the top veneer entirely - but how exactly do I achieve the diamond effect? It looks like I need a set of at least four matched pieces so that the grain will line up.

Any suggestions on what veneer to buy and where to buy it so that I can recreate the original look?

FWIW, I've previously ordered European Walnut veneer from here:
http://www.veneersupplies.com/categories/Raw__Wood__Veneer/Wood__Veneer__N__-__Z/Walnut__%28European%29/

Thanks for any help!

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-13-2016

Googling around a bit - it looks like this is called (unsurprisingly) "diamond matched" veneer.

http://www.veneers.com/resources/
http://jimrreynolds.com/university/veneer_matching_special.html

Now to see who might be able to supply such a thing in European walnut.

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Radioroslyn - 06-13-2016

Hi Nathan,
Sorry I don't have any sage advise for your top. Glad to know I'm not the only guy who has one of these (actually two).  Have seen a few that the top veneer has been replaced with a single piece, looks awful. Sounds like you've got a handle on getting the right stuff to make it look proper.
The first one I got was free from a friend but had some water damage to the top (warpage) and the original off/on/volume control was replaced by mounting a new control and separate off/on sw in the side of the cabinet.
http://philcoradio.com/phorum/showthread.php?tid=2191&highlight=370+chairside

Serviced the chassis and had it playing well but still has the holes in the side.
GL w/it
Terry

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-13-2016

Thanks Terry! I'll definitely avoid a single sheet of veneer. I love this model for how the diamond matched veneer looks on top - really beautiful.

This diamond-matched veneer set from Constantine's would be *perfect* if only it were European Walnut rather than American Walnut:

http://www.constantines.com/walnutdiamondmatchedface.aspx

I wonder if there's a way to make American Walnut look more like the European variety? :/

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Radioroslyn - 06-14-2016

> European Walnut rather than American Walnut
Pardon my stupidity but what's the difference in appearance??

Terry

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-14-2016

My understanding is that American walnut tends to be a lot darker than European walnut.

http://www.constantines.com/walnutstripe.aspx
[Image: http://www.constantines.com/ProductImages/veneers/walnut_qt.jpg]

http://www.constantines.com/walnut-frenchstripe.aspx
[Image: http://www.constantines.com/ProductImages/veneers/walnutfrench_stripe.jpg]


Obviously there can be quite a bit of variance in color even within a single species of wood, so I think Constantines is just giving the above as 'typical' to demonstrate the average appearance.

I did once mistakenly order some American walnut - and it definitely finishes much darker brown than the wood on our Philcos.

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - OldRestorer - 06-14-2016

(06-14-2016, 01:29 AM)Radioroslyn Wrote:  > European Walnut rather than American Walnut
Pardon my stupidity but what's the difference in appearance??

Terry

European walnut has an accent Icon_lol

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-14-2016

Icon_lol Didn't think of that.

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Radioroslyn - 06-14-2016

Better stay away from the rottenstone. It's having an unusual effect, it's making you funny!!

Terry

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Arran - 06-15-2016

 The top of that cabinet may be neither type of walnut, I would suggest stripping some of the old finish off to get a better look. To me the grain looks a lot like that orientalwood veneer that Philco used on the front arches of their model 70 and 90 cabinets, or it could be eucalyptus veneer, as I say strip some of the finish off first. The problem with using the second cabinet as a reference is that it looks like it was refinished, which means that the veneer on top may or may not be original, sometimes people will reveneer a cabinet with the wrong species. If someone had a copy of an original ad with a description of the veneers used that would be helpful.
Regards
Arran

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-15-2016

Thank you Arran for questioning my assumption about the type of wood! I know I've read in multiple places that walnut veneer used in antique radios is almost always not American walnut. But...

According to the 370 Sales Card (http://philcoradio.com/phorum/showthread.php?tid=13735):

Quote:The sides are vertical and horizontal Matched Pin Stripe Black Walnut and Figured Oriental Wood. Note particularly the diamond matching of the Pin Stripe American Walnut top.

Icon_e_surprised

And it's not just this model. A few other examples from the same flip book:

Model 70 Highboy
Quote:This massive Highboy is 39 1/4" high and 23 1/2" wide, of American Black Walnut with Figured Walnut instrument panel. The overlays are Quilted Maple and the pilasters of Pin Stripe Walnut.

Model 90 Baby Grand
Quote:The instrument panel is Matched Butt Walnut, found usually only in ex­pensive furniture. The Oriental Wood arch is V-Matched, adding to the richness of the American Black Walnut body.

Model 112 Low-Boy
Quote:It is executed in walnut; the figured instrument panel is framed in V-Matched Oriental Wood, Matched Butt Walnut pilasters carry out the design theme, executed in the top and sides in American Black Walnut.

In any case, this is great news! Apparently the diamond-matched veneer from Constantine's is the perfect match.

I guess it just goes to show that a little 'knowledge' is a dangerous thing. Icon_lol

-Nathan

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Nathan Slingerland - 06-28-2016

OK - I need some advice.

I finally got a chance to strip the top of the 370 - and the top cleaned up surprisingly well!

Whatever finish was on it was very thick and was very slow to come off with lacquer remover. I switched to Citristrip which takes more time but seems to be more reliable:

[Image: http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w374/slingn/Philco%20370%20Lazyboy%20II/20160627_205613_zpsdboe7lme.jpg]

Option I - Repair

There are a few scratches. But the big concern is obviously matching the missing pieces of veneer. Both in terms of grain pattern - as well as color. I'm a veneering novice - and am not confident that the patches wouldn't be obvious after refinishing.

Option II - Replace

The top looked so bad initially that I ordered replacement veneer from Constantines (note to self: always strip first and order veneer after!). Here's what that looks like:

[Image: http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w374/slingn/Philco%20370%20Lazyboy%20II/20160627_205756_zps6hb4dmbo.jpg]

For the new veneer I'm mostly worried about trimming it precisely and neatly enough (especially the hole for the dial). It will also look slightly different than the original since on the original the four corners are actually made up of separate pieces of veneer (total: 8 pieces) whereas the replacement is made up of four pieces. The effect on the original is pretty subtle so my inclination is that's probably not a big deal.

Any sage advice / recommendations for the best path to take? Repair or replace?

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Arran - 06-28-2016

 The two pieces chipped out near the dial will be the most difficult to repair, you would have to cut a strip out of each to make two patches parallel to the existing grain, which would then no longer mirror the other side of the top, but if it was done neatly and covered with shading lacquer it would not be as noticeable. The other missing piece isn't as big of a deal since it's near the outside corner, it's matching sections are also on the outside corners so they are not adjacent to where the patch would be unlike the ones near the dial hole. In truth I would have to think about the better coarse of action myself, strip off the old veneer and replace it, or repair the existing veneer, you could always farm out the job to someone with more experience or practice on some smaller table cabinets first.
Regards
Arran

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Nathan Slingerland - 08-08-2016

Just wanted to give an update on this radio.

I decided to go the route of repairing/patching the existing veneer. I removed what veneer was remaining from the corner missing most of its veneer and used that to patch the other places missing veneer - especially near the controls. I then ordered some striped walnut veneer from Constantine's, cut it to size using a template and glued the replacement corner on.

Here's what it looks like now that it's stripped / patched:

[Image: http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w374/slingn/Philco%20370%20Lazyboy%20II/IMG_2693_zpsdslxbjfd.jpg]

[Image: http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w374/slingn/Philco%20370%20Lazyboy%20II/IMG_2690_zpsxti2bfaw.jpg]

One of the next things I want to do is to repair the missing chunks of wood from the bottom of the legs (it must've been dragged across a really rough floor...a lot!). Since some of the missing bits of wood are pretty large (up to ~0.25") the filler will need to be structural - so I'm thinking of using epoxy filler putty that Mohawk makes - does anyone here have any experience with this or a similar product?

Also, any thoughts on what kind of wood would've been used for the legs?

After that will be sanding sealer and then grain filler. Once I'm there I plan to use toning lacquer to blend the more obvious patches. 

RE: Philco 370 Chairside - Veneer Questions - Arran - 08-09-2016

(08-08-2016, 11:01 PM)Nathan Slingerland Wrote:  Since some of the missing bits of wood are pretty large (up to ~0.25") the filler will need to be structural - so I'm thinking of using epoxy filler putty that Mohawk makes - does anyone here have any experience with this or a similar product?

Also, any thoughts on what kind of wood would've been used for the legs?

It was either tulip poplar or maple, by the looks of things, very little grain in any event. If the missing chunks are large you could try to patch them with some chunks of a similar wood, though one of those epoxy based putties might work just as well since the legs will be covered with shading lacquer anyhow.
Regards
Arran