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Philco 21 sort of - Printable Version

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Philco 21 sort of - Radioroslyn - 07-10-2018

So a bunch of years ago I bought a model 21 on epay. The cabinet was pretty rough as it needed a rear arch, front panel, base board, and base trim. Got all or these parts together only to find after that the surround was badly rotted behind the trim. I don't really have the tools or experience to build a new surround so the project went on hold.
Time past and I found a model 70 cabinet on cl that was in reasonable shape and reasonable price. As far as I can tell the 21 and the 70 cabinets are identical except for the front panel and the holes for the chassis in the base board.
More time past due to personal issues and health so it's been on hold for abt 10yrs. So I noticed that the front arch veneer is cracking slightly. Kinda odd in that it's not a curved area but flat.
The few days I've been stripping the cabinet and cleaning the gunk out of the cracks and crevices. I'm surprised that the veneer is very thin paper thin so sanding going to be minimal. It's about ready for a few coats of sanding sealer so I can see what areas need some work. Here's a pic of the original 21 cabinet. About the only things that were any good are the frt arch and columns. https://www.flickr.com/photos/53710524@N06/5559799220/in/dateposted/
And a few pics of the early model 70 cabinet ready for some ss.

RE: Philco 21 sort of - OldRestorer - 07-10-2018

That is one nice 620 chairside....  Icon_twisted

Icon_smile

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Arran - 07-13-2018

Terry;
  In case you can't stand those cracks, the veneer that they used on the frond arch on model 21s. 70s, and 90s was something called "orientalwood", at least that's what Steve Davis said they used, so he uses that on his repro cabinets.
Regards
Arran

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Radioroslyn - 07-13-2018

Hi Arran
It doesn't bother me much. It's been grain filled and a few coats of sealer so It's not as noticeable. After some toner I think it will be even less. Am waiting on a Mohawk order to arrive probably next week. Oh and I'm lazy! If it had a hunk missing I'd give Steve a call.

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Phlogiston - 07-13-2018

I've seen that veneer crack before. It might come back after a refinish. I am not suggesting you do anything about it. If it does come back, just don't get any wax in it and it will be very minor.

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Arran - 07-18-2018

This is just an educated guess, since I don't have a model 21, or 70, or 90, to examine, but those cracks very likely line up with a joint in the poplar substrate of the arch molding, due to there not being a layer of underlying veneer under the orientalwood. I don't know if all of the Ed Coombs "Baby Grand" cabinets from 1931 were like this or if it depended on which company made the cabinets, Philco or an outside contractor, I noticed that Terry's cabinet has the top and side veneer's grain running from back to front horizontally, whilst others have it running vertically. it would be interesting to know whether the Canadian built cabinets of that year also suffered from this issue.
Regards
Arran

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Steve Davis - 07-18-2018

I restored a 70 cabinet for a customer a while back that had this sort of cracking on the arch veneer. I was unable to determine the cause. There were no underlying joints running parallel to the cracks. The only thing I can think of, there may be a different rate of expansion and contraction (because of changes in temperature and humidity)  between the oriental wood veneer and the underlying wood causing the veneer to pull itself apart. The way the arch is constructed, the core material is made with strips of poplar or other wood, edge glued, with the grain and glue joints running vertically. A layer of thick. inexpensive veneer, is added to the front and back with the grain running perpendicular to the core grain. This is called "cross banding" or just "banding" for short. The cross banding minimizes warping, cracking and splitting of the core. Finally, the finish veneer is added with a "V" match diagonal grain on the front and a vertical grain on the rear.

Terry, if you decide you want to replace the veneer, let me know, I will send you some oriental wood veneer.

Steve

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Radioroslyn - 07-18-2018

Hi Steve
Thanks for your kind offer! And the worm's eye view of the construction of the front arch. Kinda figured that it was constructed like that but never taken one apart (generally I try to find project sets that don't need major cabinet/veneer repairs). I'm curious how surround is built and fitted to the front arch and columns. I assume that there is a groove cut in to the back edge of the arch and columns for it to fitted and glued in w/hide glue. I also remember reading that on some (indiscriminately) the grain on the surround would be applied vertically or horizontally. Which is better?

Actually something I would be interested in is some edge trim for an 18MX, might have asked you abt this a number of years ago. Here's a pic of Nathan's set. I don't remember how much is missing but it's a fair amount, the cabinet is sort of buried in storage. 
[Image: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4149/35686156326_99ea46dabd_z.jpg]

The 70 cab is about done - the front panel. A few more sandings and coats of clear and it done.

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Steve Davis - 07-18-2018

Terry, you are correct, the back of the arch has a groove the wraparound fits into. The model 20 did not have this groove, they used a rabbit joint (a groove that extends all the way to the edge).  Those are a real bear to assemble. When I make a 20 cabinet, I make the rabbit cut about one half inch wide to make assembly easier. I use bar clamps and a ratchet strap to hold the cabinet together while the glue dries, then trim the edge after assembly.  It's very obvious why Philco starting using a groove set in from the edge on the 21 and later cabinets. As for the wraparound grain direction, the model 20 used an up and over grain direction while the 21, 70 and 90 mostly used a front to back direction. I say mostly because they did use an up and over on a few 70 and 90s.  In the past, I did own one 70 and one 90 with up and over grain. As far as I know, all "Clyde Shuler" style cabinets had front to back grain.

That 18MX trim would be a tough one. My moulding head is only two inches wide, so the best I could do is make it in sections.

Steve

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Radioroslyn - 07-20-2018

So 21 cabinet is looking pretty good after many coats of lacquer, sanding, toning, ect. Unfortunately when I use to do leather repair I got to be pretty detail oriented, this thing has been make me nutz. Always can find little think I think I can improve on. There a few minor t/u it could use but I think I'll save that later. I need to get a few walnut markers. The lower rt frnt corner is ok the light area is a reflection.

RE: Philco 21 sort of - OldRestorer - 07-21-2018

Oh boy,
Spraying in the house again?... Icon_crazy

It looks real nice Terry. Is it all one color?

Icon_smile

RE: Philco 21 sort of - Radioroslyn - 07-21-2018

Tnx.
>Spraying in the house again?
Not so much. The weather has been good so I haven't had to resort to in home spraying. I did bring some of the work inside to dry after spraying as I was a little concerned about blushing. Haven't lugged the Mohawk order down stairs yet. Did mark all the lids so I can see what I've got in the box at a glance.
> Is it all one color?
More or less. I does shift a little w/different lighting. The new front panel looked like oak ( more in the yellow range) so after toning it w/ medium brown it still was not matching very well. Ended up giving it a light coat of cherry toner. This is what it look like before.
Didn't really like the three tone look.