[etech]

Hi all,

I have been reading Chuck's web page on Philco build dates vs chassis serial number. My 90 cathedral is serial #709731. The bottom of the cabinet is stamped, but only partially legible. I can read this much,
OCT 1?-4. I can't read the digit after the 1, but it might be a 3. According to Chuck's graph, this radio should have been built in very early October 1931.

So, can anyone help me decipher the stamp on the bottom of the cabinet? What could the digit be after the 1? And, what does the -4 mean?

Could it be OCT 13-4 where the '13' stands for 1931 and the '-4' is the 4th of the month?

Thanks,

Ed

[etech]

Ok then, what about this? Does anyone know what the format is for the date stamp on the bottom of the model 90 cabinet? For example, is it (month - day -year) or (month - year - day) or (month - day - employee number) or (month - day - shop)? I'm thinking if I knew what the format was I could figure out the missing number.

Thanks,

Ed

[Chuck Schwark]

Cabinet manufacture dates are from the cabinet makers' shops (many), not the Philco factory mfr date of the chassis.
Chassis mfr dates correlate to the chassis serial numbers only, per the graphs on my site.
Also, over the years, cabinets become swapped with chassis' etc......
Philco could have easily kept a run of cabinetry on hand for many months before used by a factory run of models that used a particular cabinet type.

The various shops used by Philco are designated by number thusly:

Philco Model Shop - Plant 2
Philco cabinet factory (on premises)- Plant 8
Watsontown Furniture Co. - Plant 15 (later bought by Philco)
Mengel Body Co. - Plant 16
Smith Cabinet Co. - Plant 17
Wabash Cabinet Co. - Plant 18
Maddox Table Co. - Plant 19
Pooley Furniture Co., H.A. Prock Lumber Co. - Plant 20
Pennsylvania Furniture Co. - Plant 21
Red Lion Cabinet Co. - Plant 25

This number (just digits) may have been emnbossed on bottom or chalked inside the cabinet or elsewhere.

[etech]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the very informative post on this topic. After reading the information on your web page about 'Serial Numbers and Dates', I somehow thought that the rubber stamped date on the bottom of the cabinet could somehow be related to the date the set was assembled.

So, is there a date stamped on some of the chassis which could then be related to the serial number? In the case of my radio, I have serial number 709731, which by the graph should have been built in early October of 1931. I guess it was just coincidence that the rubber stamp on the bottom of the cabinet was also OCT. I am reasonably certain that the chassis in my model 90 is the original chassis installed at the factory.

I would be interested if anyone who has a model 70 or 90 cathedral could look at the bottom of their cabinet and report what the stamped date code is.

BTW, my cabinet has an 893 chalked on the inside floor.

Thanks,

Ed

[Chuck Schwark]

Ed,

No, there is no DATE on the chassis, only the SERIAL NUMBER. Then use the chart to see where your serial number falls on the graph for your model.

Chuck

[Ron Ramirez]

I think the -4 could stand for Plant 4 (which was also part of the Philco complex; see my site's History section). The OCT 13 is, without a doubt, meant to mean October 13. The -4 could not possibly stand for 1934 since the Model 90 was out of production by spring 1932.

[etech]

Hi Ron,

I think you could be right about the -4 being Plant 4. I found another old 90 cabinet in my junk here that I forgot about and it is stamped OCT 14' 4. So, I guess many of them must have been made in plant 4.

Funny though, I re-read the history section of your web site about cabinet making and I really didn't see any mention of a Plant 4. But I definitely am taking your word that it existed and especially because it looks like I may have two 90 cabinets that came from that shop.

Ed

[Chuck Schwark]

Yes, I did not see Plant 4 mentioned either, when reading the History section on cabinetry.
Ron?

Will add it to my Cabinet Mfrs listing though.

Chuck

[Drew]

While on the Model 90 topic - are there approximate production figures of units made on the three types, early, middle & late. I see the total is some 106,000.

Also; How thick is the plywood arch support on the back of this model ? Mine is missing and I'd like to fabricate one.

I just found an early version at an antique shop yesterday - never thought I'd find a 90 in such a place for a low price, it made my day What a beautiful radio.

Drew

[Ron Ramirez]

The only production figures available for the 90 Baby Grand are for total production; there is no breakdown for early, "mid" and late versions.

I seem to recall that the arch support is 3/4" thick on most 90 cabinets but may be 1/2" on later models? I honestly do not remember on this one. I believe you can purchase this piece from Dick Oliver if you do not want to go to the hassle of making your own (and it can be a hassle...been there, done that).

[etech]

Drew- The arch on my mid-model 90 measures 11/16". So, I would guess 3/4" would be the closest replacement plywood available today?

Ed

[Jim Berg]

Since I looked at my two 90's and one 70 I will post the numbers here. The 90's are both early models. Serial# 68898 May 9th 31, serial# 83256 May 22nd 31. The 70 serial# 640245 Sept 11th 31. Hope this helps.

[Drew]

Follow up question on Model 90 chassis serial numbers and the number of each version produced - After lookig at Chuck Schwark's graph, early 90's had numbers below 237,001, middle versions 237,001 to
253, 099 and late versions 253,100 or higher.

Does this mean that there would be about 16,000 total middle versions made (determined by subtracting the lower figure from the higher figure given)

Can this method be used if you had a substantial log of serial numbers, taking note of the highest numbers and lowest numbers ?

I did this myself with the KLH Model 8 radio - logging about 200 serial numbers and taking note of any production changes. No number high then 11,667 was found, so I determined that about 12,000 had been produced. KLH serial numbers were consecutive, starting with 00001 and progressing to 00002, 00003, etc.

I see that Philco's numbering is more complicated. I'm just very interested in finding total production for early, middle and late versions the Model 90.

Sorry if I missed any details mentioned above by other members, serial number deciphering gets confusing.

Drew

[Ron Ramirez]

Sigh...

Let's go through a bit of a lesson on Philco serial numbers, shall we, followed by a "Savage" commentary.

The Ron Boucher study, in which I assisted and was originally published in Antique Radio Classified magazine (a portion of which is now posted on Chuck's site), clearly shows that Philco assigned serial numbers consecutively to its entire radio line. In other words, they would produce a batch of 70 chassis, then some 90 chassis, some 112 chassis, etc., etc. Regardless of which chassis was being produced that day/week/whatever, each one received a sequential serial number. The last 90 off the assembly line yesterday may have been numbered 342999 and the next day when 112 sets began to roll, the first 112 on the line would get 343000. (These numbers are merely for example only, to illustrate a point I am trying to make.)

When Philco serial numbers reached 999999 they went to a letter followed by five digits; i.e. A00001. Once they reached A99999 they went to B00000. And so on.

According to Philco service data for the late version 90, these will have serial numbers between B32001 and B35000, and above B53100. Also according to Philco service data for the "mid" version of Model 90, these versions will have serial numbers above 237001 (but obviously below B32001).

The late version of Model 70 (with AVC and the infamous autodyne detector-oscillator circuit) commenced production with serial number B22000.

The late version of Model 112 (using two 47 output tubes) commenced production with serial number 174001.

Now, having dispensed with that, here comes some much needed (in my opinion) commentary:

<rant>What difference does all of this make anyway? Have any of you ever stopped to consider that, perhaps, it was not meant for everyone to know exactly how many of each Model 90 variants were made; the exact date and hour your particular Model 90 was built; if the wiring was installed by a beautiful woman or a homely one, married or single? Good grief, the next thing I expect is for some schmuck to demand to know what brand of toilet paper Jim Skinner used! Give it a rest already!</rant>

[Drew]

Ron, Thanks for the detail about Philco's serial numbering system, it makes how they did things clearer.

Also, thanks for the rant - you make a very good point. I find myself a little eager for info since I just came across an early model 90 and found myself wanting to know if any of the three versions are considered scarce (they seem about equal). Again, thanks for bringing into focus what it's all about....having that radio - fixing it and enjoying it !

For Ed, My cabinet bottom is stamped "May 1931" and has " # 7 " written in blue marker. The chassis has no serial number on the back pannel.

Drew