[Phlogiston]

Some people may want to take a (few) Zanax BEFORE reading this one.

I have had to address this so frequently, that , well  - - I now have a link:

https://www.russoldradios.com/blog/who-l...-a-chassis

Take a look.

Russ


P.S. If you feel the need to say "It's My Radio!!" (breathing heavily) - Yes, that is OK. You can work on the next one.

[Paul Philco322]

Well considering my last post about Hayseed Hamfest I am a bit reticent of posting in this thread. I know I am among friends. 
Your post makes many good points Russ and is a very effective summary of what collector/restore community faces. Even if a set is "restored" it is worth looking underneath, would you buy an antique car or any car without opening the hood?

Some poor work is I am sure due to lack of skill, being lazy, not training yourself, etc.....some folks just want to make a set play to make a buck. I am not sure how someone could put a possibly hazardous set in a buyers home for a few bucks. 

I share your belief in better to have a well done radio than 3 sketchy ones. It is also true that a poor job makes it very hard for the person who wants to make it right.

I had a pal give me an Airline 62-425 "restored" found at an antique barn, it was most thoughtful of him, it was a neat set. Upon trying to play it I became evident it needed help. I am most likely on the lowest rung here from a technical  perspective and looking underneath this one it seemed to be an electrical swamp. I asked a Senior in our radio club to check it out, I told him it was not my mess. Ray wound up using it as an example in a repair book he was writing, "how not to repair a radio" and it turned out as a guide on what not to do. He also repaired it at a fair price and returned me something safe and worth keeping. You can see one here......

http://www.antiqueradio.com/Jun05_Arnold_Airline.html      

He had also done work on a Philco for me, I had another friend in my club look at this set once for and he said "who did this work" I was expecting the worst and he then said "it is one of the best jobs I have ever seen" it became a much easier fix because of the swell work Ray had done. 

So I guess all the rambling leads to the point that a well done job has many benefits down the road. 

Now if all my radios were done to the same exacting standards. 

You are a keeper of the flame as are many who comment here.

Paul

[morzh]

I might agree with some statements, I might disagree with some other ones.

I restuff caps and don't overmold the resistors.
I do use cloth clad wire but don't necessarily use the same colors, or colors at all. This said, the plastic clad wire in the pics may very well be 600V-rated. I use lots of 600V and 300V rated wire at work and it is pretty slim looking.

I respect the work Russ does. This is state of the art and is museum quality.
This said, for a radio to work reliably this is not a pre-requisit. Radio will work just fine with pladtic-covered wires, yellow caps and many other things even I frown upon.
And many people who pay for restoration (which I don't do, I only restore for self or helping others) only ask for the radio to work. They indeed might not be interested in period-authentic looking underchassis.

PS. Good soldering is a must.

[Arran]

There is one habit that a lot of hack "restorers" use that is almost a calling card, that is to cut out the old caps and "J" hook and solder the leads of the old cap onto the leads of the new cap. That is something I just can't bring myself to do, same with just tack soldering things in place unless it's a temporary thing. Another thing I see a lot lately are people adding things like automotive fuse holders, the inline type, under the chassis, those are for hooking up a 12 volt car stereo, not for 120 VAC, and certainly not for B+ voltage, not only are they not rated for this they look like crap since they are usually made out of white plastic with 12 gauge wire leads. I've even seen this done in AC/DC radios, which are series string, and often have a small chassis, why bother? Another mark of a hack repair are those automotive crimp connectors, the ones for splicing wires, along with using half a roll of electrical tape on tattered wires, why not just run a new wire? Then you have the nylon cable ties, please stop using those, even bands of tape looks better, or bands of heat shrink tubing, to hold wires in place.
  Then you have the silliness over the line voltage, for some reason people think that all old radios were designed to run on 110 volts, when the truth is that the only 110 volt power grids were the DC ones, so that they need to add stuff in series with the power line. In some cases this is a good idea, to a point, such as if the radio is a gift to someone, but they should use a bucking transformer to drop it down, not big power resistors outside the chassis, and certainly not pilot light bulbs.
  I got into re-stuffing caps in recent years, though I won't do it in everything. Such as if its a common post war AC/DC set, or a common pre war set where most of the caps have been changed already. But I've found it's very easy to do once I did a dry run on one set, which was a more collectable model to start with, I melt out the wax in a toaster over, wipe off the residue whilst they are still hot, and clean them up with lacquer thinner if necessary. Then I wrap the new yellow poly film cap in a strip of corrugated cardboard, sometimes I will tack the ends of the strip down with hot glue, stuff the new cap into the tube, centering it between the ends. Then I take the whole assemble, and stand it on end in a vice or whatever, and fill the end with hot glue, let it cool, then turn it over and repeat. Granted the hot glue isn't the same colour as the old wax but it does turn opaque, and the re-stuffed cap looks much nicer in a pre war radio then a bright yellow cap. I've even done this with the toilet roll style electrolytics used in AC/DC radios, it makes for a much neater install then trying to mount radial lead caps somewhere under the chassis.
Regards
Arran

[EdHolland]

Intersting topic. Faced with the "Philthy Philco" and some major requirements for restoration of our 16X there were choices to make. Standards can be high when you are the customer...

Here is what I did:

No compromise on electrical safety - all components and wire up to standards or exceeding necessary rating. I did use cloth wire, but original colours and combination colours are not available.

Some parts had to be rebuilt - speaker and audio transformers. This I tried to do following original construction methods and materials.

Caps - fairly easy, as most on this set were Bakelite blocks. I rebuilt each carefully with modern film caps so . The big tin block was also rebuilt with new parts placed within. The main filter electrolytics were replaced with well rated motor film caps, and mounted in the correct spot. I now have a set of rebuilable "Mershons" that could go here but will probably leave things as they are. Other point to point caps are visible as modern stand-ins, not restuffed into old cases. Old parts saved for reference/interest.

I admire the work to preserve appearance and function, and I decided to follow that path in part. Since things are only original once, and our example had seen a hard life, I am comfortable with some new appearing alongside old

Lastly, I will write up and keep with the set, a journal of the project. This will describe the attempt to replicate, but not necessarily conceal the efforts. Removed components will be kept also as a record of original parts.

[Phlogiston]

Here are a few things that I said and almost said.

First, I used an example that had replacement caps in it for a reason. Even though I fully intend to find the originals (anybody have some?) the real point was in quality work. Not "nobody looks under the chassis" which implies - Anything Goes.

I am interested in other antiques, collector cars and such. It is always the objective to save as much if the original as possible. Second choice is making a replacement look as much like the original as possible. I see saving the cap barrels in this light.

To Arran, I did not get this deep in the blog - but, there is a skill to removing the existing leads/wraps. As I said, solder is weak. I will often grab the twisted end of a lead with GOOD needle-nose pliers and pull it out of the solder blob. If the lead is covered with solder, remove some first. If I want to remove all components/connections from a post I will find the top of the post and cut across the top with my side cutters. This removes the parts/wire and leave little U shaped lead/pieces behind that will fall off when the post is sucked clean. Overheating the components is a real risk if this is not done properly.

As to the wax - you are probably not going to believe this - I will pull the leads out of many brands of cap. The solid piece of wax will come out too.. I clip the lead and reinstall the original wax seal with the new part inside. This only works on some brands/series of caps. I use a modified version to "restuff" Solar caps (wax bodied caps). This takes some practice. Again, saving as much of the originality as possible.

The people that get annoyed at this say that I am telling them that they HAVE to do this. Actually I am telling them HOW to do this and WHY to do this. You can always cut out all of the original components/wire and go with whatever you have but it is hard to go back and fix the result. Learning how to solder is a good thing.

You may have noticed that I document everything with pictures/files. I have thousands of images and often use them in discussions and provide examples upon request - usually through my site.

It has always been my intent to do the best that can be done in anything I do otherwise, why bother.

[Eliot Ness]

No need for Zanax, but Like many here I admire Russ's work and have saved pictures of a couple of his finished sets to use as a reference when I get around to doing mine. 

As far as chassis work goes I also care how it looks and strive to make them look as original as possible.  I have a couple of sets that were bought already "restored" that I will have to de-modernize (if that is a word).  One is a Majestic treasure chest where they discarded the square cardboard box that housed the electrolytic caps.  I have located good pictures of an original that Alan Douglas owned and have the material to make a replacement that will be almost identical to the original. 

I also stock up on bags of used capacitors at radio meets so I can re-stuff them and replace the Chinese Yellow-Devils  (as I affectionately call them) in sets that have already been restored before I acquired them.  I also have a handful of sets I restored years ago that will eventually need to be re-visited and re-stuffed. 

I can understand someone not re-stuffing the original capacitors, but what gets me are the guys who strip everything they get their hands on and then glop it up with polyurethane.

[EdHolland]

Great points all round!

I would never conflate "nobody looks under the chassis" with any excuse for unsuitable or poor quality work. Furthermore, there are surely people who trust repair of a set to another, without any notion for what that entails, or what is required for safety and longevity. They deserve exactly the same confidence in the safety and function of a repair/restoration as in buying a new appliance (perhaps with an understanding of the different care and feeding required of valve/tube equipment). Quite a different consideration than if we do restorations for ourselves. Or is it... hopefully this stuff outlives us?

That (maybe) takes care of one aspect; The way work is executed, and the standard to which it is held, but does not necessarily consider originality, sympathetic consideration, or aesthetic values. Those aspects involve yet another layer. I see this given serious consideration in work shared here on this forum, as well as safety and function. It is a real challenge to attempt to resurrect this old technology to function and simultaneously preserve it as a record of its age. While I consider myself capable of making a safe, reliable radio, other aspects of restoration are more subjective. What could make sense is that any parts removed could be recorded and saved, so that a future owner and restorer might have a better idea about the original construction. We are lucky - often what we see is largely the output from the factory. What next, for future radio preservers?

[Phlogiston]

Yes, I feel sorry for those people that have trusted a tech to repair a family heirloom or any radio they value and later find out that he did what was best for him, maybe not what was best.

That is why I tell the many people who ask me for a reference to: Always work with a real (licensed) co who is bonded. Not that these guys might not screw up, but because these guys have made an investment in their business and bad results have an impact.  - - and if the repairs burn your house down you can call their insurance co.

I have had quite different responses on that other site, which is what I expected. Makes you guys a bunch of hard-core radio collectors..   Thanks.

[Brad Winder]

Good topic!

I like to restore chassis to as close to original as possible, which includes restuffing capacitors and using correct type/colours of wires for the particular set. That being said, I will only go that far, as long as the condition of the set warrants it. Otherwise, I use good electrical practices, and repair the set to proper (and safe) working order. I have restuffed capacitors in a 5 tube battery set, making it look as though it has never been touched. On the other hand, I've completely rebuilt a 15 tube chassis, using all new components and wires. The contrast was the battery set truly had never been worked on before, whereas the 15 tuber had been totally hacked in the past.

Incidentally,  I have a large RCA in my living room, and as much as I love the set, it doesn't play all that well. But, I'm afraid to look under the chassis. I bought it from a friend, whom has since departed this earth, and I know who he had "restore" the chassis for him. Cringe. 

[Phlogiston]

Post any pictures that you might have.

It is true, there are a lot of variables, not the least of which is your collection it's self. There are a lot of radios that I would not spend time/money on - now. I might have 10-20 years ago.

There is also the sliding scale desirability/damage/cost. If this equals less than 0, move on.

I have had chrome chassis re-plated. With nickel or copper plated chassis, I will re-plate them myself. I mention this because the amount of rust on a chassis should be one of the first considerations in the decision process. If you have the urge to paint a normally unpainted/plated chassis, it would be preferable to find a less rusty replacement. Painting looks nice - a lot better than rust, but it is never a good investment time-wise. If the cash value of the project is unimportant, never mind, but, even with people who deny, the value of the radio is a consideration at some point, even if it is the money your kids get out of it. More important, if your time or money is limited (who's isn't) moving on to another project may be preferable. Again, I hear from people who say "its just for fun" then in the next sentence they quote the Pay-Bay price. So consider this prior to starting. Funny thing - too, is that you are probably going to find a better one just as the paint is drying and then you are going to want to rid yourself of the less-perfect unit, and you don't want to throw away all that work ( though I have just thrown away radios I restored 10 - 20 years ago rather than selling them and then feeling bad about it).

And then I thought: It is worse to die with a garage full of unfinished projects. I've seen this happen too often. So get started, whatever you do.

[morzh]

It's just for fun. And I never quote prices. If I ever sell a radio (hasn't so far), it'll only be to get another one instead, or when retiring and thinning the herd.
I just do not think of it when doing restorations.
Then again, I do not paint chassis'. I simply buy those that don't need it, and have not a whole lot of rust that could be sanded of or dealt with using Naval Jelly.
Then of course, so far I haven't found a radio that has a plated chassis, nor have I bought any that I consider absolute must and rare enough to grab whatever comes my way. Maybe when Z1000 comes along, I will do exactly that

[Phlogiston]

Almost all chassis that are not aluminum are plated with something, Copper nickel, zinc. cadmium (be vary careful with cadmium).

[TV MAN]

This can be tough at times to decide "When to say When" or how much... I have seen some pretty rough repairs over the years, and with even a small so-so job, it can be challenging to figure out what someone else has done. I try to find mostly rust free radios to restore, but sometimes what I have is what I have. Then the decisions - to make it play properly and be safe with limited to no cosmetic repairs, or to leave it in a box for the future (scrap pile). That really does depend on what is at stake. On a really nice or interesting project, such as my Fisher, I will take time to restuff and really try to make it look nice. On the 'lesser' projects (like my Parmak), I will not always do that. But, no matter what - it will be neatly done, safe and have documentation. The original parts are saved where I can. I cant stand to see lousy, incompetent repair work. Yes, when I first started years ago, I did really hack up some radio and TV sets, mostly due to lack of parts, service data, test equipment and practical knowledge.  I have learned so much here! Thanks to the internet, I have parts available. Thanks to you all, My drive for this is back 

[EdHolland]

Interesting that treating chassis rust should come up. I am faced with this on my next problem, the Western Air Patrol tabletop.

Step 1) assess the minimum (recap etc) needed to make it work and see how it sounds, what else is needed to bring it back, is it worth the effort etc.

Step 2) Cosmetic clean and touch up restoration of cabinet Possibly including treatment of chassis rust.

For those of you that refinish chassis or replate, what do you use? Part of the point of high quality work is preserving, and a rusty chassis will last longer if treated and protected. Paint is one approach (after rust treatment/removal), but not an original one