[Ron Ramirez]

I come humbly before you, my friends, seeking the wisdom of the cabinet masters among us.

I received my first quart of Constantine's grain filler today. Having previously prepared two small Philco cabinets for refinishing, a 38-14T and a 39-7T, I applied the grain filler this evening to the tops of both cabinets.

Or, should I say, I tried to.

After four applications on the 38-14's top, the pores are still showing. They are partially filled, but nowhere near completely filled.

On the 39-7, it looks pretty good after two applications, but still not 100% filled.

Both cabinets were stripped the same way (and at the same time), and both were sprayed with sanding sealer yesterday, more than 24 hours before I attempted to apply grain filler this evening.

So, my question is...What am I doing wrong?

In trying to read as much as I could on this subject before trying it for myself, did I misread something?

Or, should I be applying filler before applying sanding sealer? If this is the case, I will be feeling pretty stupid...

[Arran]

According to Bob Andersen of Bandersentv on You Tube, you need to mix it well first as the solids have a tendency to fall to the bottom, then you need to thin it with mineral spirits too to get it to the right consistency. He has a video using it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAkzwfzCu...ture=feedu
I don't have any experience with this stuff at all, the last stuff I used was thinned out water based Elmers wood filler, not technically grain filler but if anything if filled too well because it was too thick. In my opinion you should use sanding sealer first, that was what I did, but some may have other opinions.
Regards
Arran

[codefox1]

Well, I have seen some rough woodwork in my times, and have used everything from lemon juice to butane torches to my grandfather's oil paints (and now I'm in grandfather territory myself ,) One of my best friends was always good old fashioned shellac, still available. As a grain sealer, and half assed veneer repair agent, superb. Yes you can do some oil tone or touch up with artist's oils on top of it (best to squint or remove eyeglasses, then blot, ) and then apply a toned or clear lacquer if you leave it sit for a week or two, touch it up, and then apply a clear coat or two.

Lacking this, you could always sell the radio with a nice house plant with the bottom surface covering the ring on the top of the cabinet completely.

[Ron Ramirez]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I've also discussed this with Exray offline, and he prefers to apply the filler before the sealer. However, he said I should be able to apply it after sealer as you mentioned, Arran. I have read stories online how other people apply sealer, then grain filler. This is what I am attempting to do. Next time though, I might try using the grain filler before the sealer.

It seems to me that folks would seal, then fill to avoid having the sealer stain the wood and give it a muddy appearance. This is what I was trying to avoid.

In my discussion with Exray, I have learned that I did not wait long enough before removing excess, so I was pulling most of the stuff back out of the pores. He recommends waiting 20 minutes. I was trying to follow the instructions on the can which stated to remove excess when it turned dull and hazy. This only took between 5-10 minutes.

I'll try it again later this weekend, and will leave it on for 20 minutes this time before I begin to remove the excess.

As I've said before, I consider myself to be very good with chassis repair but when it comes to cabinets, I'm a complete novice. But I am trying to learn.

[etech]

Hi Ron,

I'm sure Exray has you headed in the right direction. I also use Constantines grain filler. I do not use sanding sealer.

FWIW, here is how I use it. Mix it well in the original can and then scoop out enough into another container to do the job at hand. Then thin it with mineral spirits (I use an eyedropper) and add a few drops at a time and then stir well until it is the consistency of something like yellow mustard or Heinz ketchup.

Here is how I apply it.

Use a paint brush and paint it on in the direction of the grain, until the surface is coated. Then, rub it in with a cloth (an old tee shirt will do) in a circular motion. This is to be sure the filler is fully forced into the pores of the wood. When tacky, scrape it off with an old credit card, scraping across the grain. Once again, scraping across the grain insures that the filler is forced into the pores as the bulk of the product is removed.

Then, wipe down the surface with a fresh cloth (old cotton tee shirt is fine) in the direction of the grain. If you wipe the surface well, there is usually little or no sanding to do. That's about it. It seems to work well every time, once you develop your technique and you rarely need to apply more than one coat. I think this method varies from what is described on the application notes on the can, but it seems to work well for me. I hope this helps.

Good luck with your project.

Regards,

Ed

[Ron Ramirez]

Ed

How long do you wait until you start scraping? I tried it again this afternoon, and found 20 minutes wasn't long enough. An hour wasn't long enough. 1-1/2 hours was questionable. The filler did a better job getting the pores filled this time around, but still not 100%.

I got the stuff mixed and thinned properly this time, I am sure. From your description and from what Exray has told me, the consistency of mine this afternoon matched what you have described after I thinned it and stirred, stirred, stirred.

I used a brush instead of a rag this time, swirling the filler around into the pores as I applied it, then brushing against the grain. I scraped it off with an old credit card, scraping at an angle (more against the grain than with it).

[codefox1]

It has a lot to do with the humidity, and just how thirsty the wood is. I hope we're talking hardwood veneer that is firmly attached here otherwise nothing will make any sense. Sealer and grain filler are theoretically not the same thing and that's where all the opinions start

Think of it as installing or renewing grout on your shower wall, or if you will, the highway department patching up potholes in the road. Clean out everything, apply the filler and remove the excess. Shouldn't be able to tell where the hole was in a reasonable amount of time. No?

If you are putting too much on or thinning it too much, and then wiping all of it off and too soon, no harm done, but too heavy a coat might get you into trouble as in grinding through the veneer later on.

On a really marginal cabinet with serious flaws and not otherwise a candidate for new veneer I have used artist oils, and shellac because it dries fast, fills up voids, levels well, does not produce witness lines, and is a great candidate for a french polish job if you have the patience. If not, and you give it some tooth with very fine abrasion lacquer will usually bond OK.

Of course we could just epoxy an even larger flower pot base to cover the flaw. Yeah, that'd work.

[etech]

Ron,

As Codefox says, it does have a lot to do with humidity. I am usually working in an area where the relative humidity is about 45% to 55% and I would say on average the grain filler is usually tacky and ready for removal in about 10 minutes or less. Now possibly, if you are working outdoors in the summer in a very high humidity environment, then it could take a lot longer. Or, the other consideration is that you may have thinned the product too much.

My wife does much of the cabinet work here, and many times we will work together when doing the grain filler because it sometimes drys too fast to properly remove it, particularly when doing a large console radio. In fact on large radios, we will do only one side at a time because the product can dry too fast.

Also, since the grain filler is soluble in mineral spirits, if it is too dry, you can usually remove it with a cloth soaked in mineral spirits, although it may remove too much of the grain filler. In fact, always avoid wiping down the surface with mineral spirits, after applying the grain filler.

Overall, if the grain filler takes more than 15 minutes to dry, I would say that it is thinned too much. Also, if it is thinned too much, the grain filler will be removed from the pores as it is wiped off the surface.

Ron, I have a one gallon can of grain filler here, I would be willing to mix up a small batch ready for application and mail it down to you to try. Who knows, maybe you received a bad can of grain filler?

Ed

[Ron Ramirez]

Humidity...good to know. Debbie has already suggested that I try applying the stuff again in the house this time, upstairs where I do my radio repair work. If humidity is a factor, I think I will try it.

I looked over my 38-14 and 39-7 cabinets this morning before I left for the Lexington radio auction. The pores are partially filled...I can see the stuff in the pores...but when I rub my finger across the grain I can still feel the pores, as if they are still open.

This is all very frustrating, to say the least. I'm starting to wonder if there is some sort of black magic involved, and you guys who do this are holding back secrets from the rest of us.

Ed, that is very kind of you to offer that and I will take you up on the offer. I'll send a PM later with my shipping info. Thanks!

[Bob Andersen]

I'm sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with the grain filler. As Aaran mentioned, I recently used this product for the first time recently and recorded some video of the process. First, I experimented on some scraps following the directions on the can exactly. I did apply the filler before the sanding sealer and only had to wait 10-15 minutes for it to set up. Then I wiped off the excess with burlap going against the grain and then cheesecloth going with the grain. Very little sanding was necessary. I applied it indoors where the temperature was about 75 and normal humidity.

Overall I like this product better the the Behlen water based filler I've used in the past.

Good luck,
Bob

[Ron Ramirez]

Hi Bob

Thanks for chiming in. At Arran's suggestion (see the second post in this thread, above), I watched your video and found it to be quite interesting. Maybe I should have experimented on scraps first?

It was watching your video that helped me in thinning the product, and I feel I had mine thinned to the same consistency as you did in the video. And the last time I tried it, I applied it with a brush just like you did in the video, a heavy coat as you did.

Well, since three of you gentlemen have now stated that it should be applied indoors in low/moderate humidity, that is what I will do when I try it next. I'll give it another go later this week - I am going to leave them both alone today.

[Ron Ramirez]

Progress report:

Following some coaching by "etech" (and thank you also for the sample of grain filler), I tried applying the stuff yet again.

This time, I brushed it on as before, but then I rubbed it into the pores with a hard, circular motion. I found that in doing this, most of the excess came off, leaving the filler in the pores for the most part and eliminating the need for scraping.

I decided to call that "good enough" and today, proceeded with the work.

After sanding both cabinets down, I found that the front and sides of the 38-14 cabinet actually turned out better than I thought; I think I achieved about 90% grain fill here. However, on the top, some pores are showing - but not nearly as much as they would have if I had used no filler at all.

As for the 39-7, the top is pretty much 100% filled. But the front and sides of the 39-7 were not completely filled, not as much as I initially thought.

Nevertheless, after sanding, I hit both cabinets with one more coat of sanding sealer, then applied the Medium Walnut toner.

Then this evening, I used lacquer and a tiny brush to coat the inner edges of the grille cutouts on both cabinets.

Here's the results so far. First, the 38-14:

[Image: http://www.philcoradio.com/images/phorum/ARF/063.jpg]

I don't know why the black lacquer in the edges of the grille cutouts looks uneven in this photo. It doesn't look that way in person.

Anyway, here's the 39-7:

[Image: http://www.philcoradio.com/images/phorum/ARF/068-1.jpg]

This one has brown lacquer in the edges of the grille cutouts.

The 38-14 cabinet had black trim on the top and bottom edges; the 39-7 had Extra Dark Walnut toner. If all goes well, both will receive the dark toners to their respective top and bottom edges tomorrow, and then clear coats of Deft.

Neither cabinet is going to be 100% perfect, but they are looking much better than if I had used no grain filler at all.

[Glenn Roberts]

Nice Work Ron,

They look great. This post will help us that are intimidated by the whole process to give a go. Thanks to all who contributed information.

Glenn

[Ron Ramirez]

Today, I began by applying black lacquer to the top and bottom edges of the 38-14, and Extra Dark Walnut toner to the top and bottom edges of the 39-7.

The 38-14 received three coats of black; the 39-7 received two coats of Extra Dark Walnut to keep it from looking too much like paint.

After letting a couple hours pass, I then gave each cabinet three coats of clear lacquer. Then, after letting both dry for an hour, both cabinets were lightly wet sanded with 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper. Following this, both cabinets were given two final coats of Deft semi-gloss clear.

Here's the results. First, a photo, with flash, of the 38-14 cabinet:

[Image: http://www.philcoradio.com/images/phorum/ARF/001.jpg]

The grille cloth and backing board is not attached to the cabinet. I just stuck it in here for the photo, to see how it would look. This is the original cloth, and since it is still in very good condition, I am going to reuse it.

Now, a photo (without flash) of the 38-14, with the chassis inside:

[Image: http://www.philcoradio.com/images/phorum/ARF/006.jpg]

And finally, a photo (again, without flash) of the 39-7, with the chassis stuck inside just for fun:

[Image: http://www.philcoradio.com/images/phorum/ARF/008.jpg]

Next step: Wait two weeks, then rub both cabinets out with polishing compound, followed by a coat of wax.

When the cabinets are rubbed out, waxed and everything reassembled, I will post "after" photos.

This has been a great learning experience, and I feel that I have taken my (rather poor) refinishing skills to the next level, which was my goal all along.

Thanks to everyone who replied both in this thread and via PM.

[codefox1]

Well, there is one more force to be dealt with, and this is gravity. Whilst you are waiting for a reluctant paste to settle down and level itself before drying out enough to prohibit itself from doing so, it can turn your woodwork into an English Muffin of sorts, and only massive extra sprays of clear with the benefit of gravity on the sides or front will set it right.

Front, top, left right, and a blast inside and bottom for stability is how I have done it in the past, and for a cool running set I have many times used shellac. Forgive me.